British OOB June 1944 - additional formations?

[gila]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

One thing I noticed when transcribing the information on the Motor Battalion Scout Platoon was the presence of the Boys ATR - in game terms, this disappears in 1942.

As a side issue - has anyone ever killed anything using a Boys anti-tank rifle? Was it really as useless as modelled in the Game?

Well,yes if you happen to stumble on them with something with less 2 amour.

Not much good, UK took some hard lessons on inft. AT teams early until the bazooka

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

One thing I noticed when transcribing the information on the Motor Battalion Scout Platoon was the presence of the Boys ATR - in game terms, this disappears in 1942.

As a side issue - has anyone ever killed anything using a Boys anti-tank rifle? Was it really as useless as modelled in the Game?

not really useless, they work better i groups of 3, 1 at front, 2 at sides, fire unil the panzer exposes its thin sides and rear, esp. IIIb/d wich has weaker armor and is the most common for france '40, watch out for those czech(or whererever they came from) tanks.

@cross Do you know wjhat was the criteria of the inquiry mentioned at #11? because a 14mm round *could* blow some pistons off an engine, damage tracks, kill the driver/gunner and such damage wich would make the vehicle useless, after all, a KO can be described in several diferent ways, e.g an immobile tiger is a pillbox, as it takes a tiger to tow a tiger, making 2 vehicles unavaiable?

[Imp]

However, I have read that Britain supplied the Boys to Finland and it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys

I bet the Finns were impressed with it, definetly atributed to the Boys? there home grown ATR lahiti or something like is good still need several though.
Boys not sure if I have killed anything but damage immobolise yes. Either assaulting with or within a couple of hexes otherwise its just a suppresor IMHO.
Finns Lahiti is a diffrent mater kills very rare with one hit but have killed 3 armour with it possibly 4 with consecutive damage. T-26s T-60s AC etc

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

I bet the Finns were impressed with it, definetly atributed to the Boys? there home grown ATR lahiti or something like is good still need several though.
Boys not sure if I have killed anything but damage immobolise yes. Either assaulting with or within a couple of hexes otherwise its just a suppresor IMHO.
Finns Lahiti is a diffrent mater kills very rare with one hit but have killed 3 armour with it possibly 4 with consecutive damage. T-26s T-60s AC etc

Boyes - I have not killed much with these apart from class 1 armour little scout cars and Japanese tinfoil tankettes in the far east. The germans have little class 1 armour to kill bar the baby scout cars and sdkfz251s. Only the really early panzer 2 has any class 1 - the rest are reasonably OK with class 2 side.

However, they are annoying to fight against as German or Italian in the desert, since they respond in opfire to your tank fire and button your tanks up when dealing with UK infantry. This can be annoying if you get enough suppression to lose the target lock and have to use up rally. They will occasionally do a track hit as well.

My dad used one post war in his national service on minesweepers clearing the northern barrage. it was used to sink free floating mines, and did that job well. They laid out a bed of sandbags on the deck for the firer as that helped with the recoil.

Andy

[Cross]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

As a side issue - has anyone ever killed anything using a Boys anti-tank rifle? Was it really as useless as modelled in the Game?

In SP the Boys ATR has a range of 500yds.

Average penetration:
2 at 50yds
1 at 100yds
0 at 150yds

Maximum penetration:
3 at 50yds
2 at 350yds
1 at 500yds
0 at 550yds

In the Boys Operating Manual it gives these penetration results:


PENETRATIONS
When to fire? This can be decided only by the firer, having a clear knowledge of the penetrative powers of the .55 bullet.

Bullet striking at a

Range... ... ... .. ..direct hit...........angle of 20 degrees................ angle of 40 degrees

Yards.........Inches.......M/M...........Inches..............M/M.............Inches..........M/M.
100 ... ... ... .91 ... ... . 23.2 ... ... ... .67 ... ... ... .... 17.0 ... ... ... .43 ... ... ... 11.0
300 ... ... ... .82 ... ... .. 20.9 ... ... ... .63 ... ... ... .... 16.0 ... ... ... .38 ... ... ... 9.6
500 ... ... ... .74 ... ... .. 18.8 ... ... ... .60 ... ... ... .... 15.3 ... ... ... .35 ... ... ... 8.8

This weapon is also useful for penetrating houses and sandbag emplacements. The maximum penetration to be expected in this form of firing is :
1. Brick walls . . . . 14 inches.
2. Sandbags . . . . 10 inches.


Operating manual found here:
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_B...fle_Manual.htm


I also found the following in the Boys Small Arms Training Pamphlet:

3. Penetration of the anti-tank rifle
Although the bullet will penetrate the armour of light A.F.Vs. up to 500 yards, and inflict casualties on the crew, fire should be withheld until the range is well within 300 yards. The angle of impact of the anti-tank rifle bullet on the armour has a greater influence than the range at which it is fired. For example, while the penetrative power is only 10 per cent. less at 300 yards than at 100 yards, it is 25 per cent. less when the angle of impact is over 20 degrees, and 50 per cent. less at over 40 degrees at the Lett r range. (For further details see the Appendix.) The exact moment of fire must therefore be decided by the firer's determination to hit the selected part of the tank fair and square, rather than by range only. As a general rule the •55-in. anti-tank rifle bullet will penetrate all parts of the Pz. Kw. Mk. I light tank, and the sides and rear of the hull and turret of the Pz. Kw. Mk. II light tank, at 250 yards range at an angle of impact of 20 degrees or less. It does not penetrate the armour of heavier tanks except in certain points such as the rear of the turret and cupola of the Pz. Kw. Mk. IV at very short range. When shooting at German tanks of the Pz. Kw. Mk. III and larger tanks fire should be aimed, if it is possible, at vulnerable points, especially on the junction point of turret and hull and gun mantle, to cause burring over of working surfaces and thus produce jamming.http://<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /...le_SAT_No5.htm

Ellis says................................. 21mm at 300yds
Chamberlain and Gander say...... 21mm at 300m
Hogg 1977 says................... ... 20mm at 500m at 0 deg
Hogg 1997 says........................ 21mm at 330yds
Labbett and Brown say Mk1...... 16mm at 100yds at 20 deg
Labbett and Brown say Mk2...... 19mm at 100yds at 20 deg
Weeks say.............................. 14mm at 300yds

Based on those numbers perhaps the Boys penetration could be tweaked a little.

I also wonder if the Boys maximum range could be increased? It clearly wasn’t much good against armour over 500yds, but there’s several references to its ability against soft targets at greater ranges, because it was an accurate weapon.

Regarding the spelling Boys/Boyes, apparently there was confusion about this even during the war. So there are many docs that refer to it as the Boyes, and the Germans – who captured quite a few at Dunkirk – often called it the Boyes. But it was named after Captain H C Boys.


Cross

[Cross]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

As a side issue - has anyone ever killed anything using a Boys anti-tank rifle?

I just damaged a German captured T34 tank with a Boys Rifle, so thought I'd better report it.

Lt Appleton's (British Light Infantry) section was facing a German T34 at 50yds. His section was trading fire with the tank, but Appleton kept rallying his men, and then they hit the T34 at a weak spot (+5) and damaged it (*).

A Cruiser tank moved forward and put another shell into it for ** damage, and then the pioneers moved forward and brewed it up. Some crew got out, but Lt Appleton finished them off.

So it's at least possible to damage a 'real' tank with a Boys.

I think to hit a weak point, you have to have over 80% hit chance.



Cross

[Cross]

Gila I think you are right, the MC and jeep must be close in vulnerability; which is probably how it should be. I wasn't aware that the MC was better over rough terrain, but that makes sense.

John, I recall reading about an inquiry during the war, to discover if the Boys had KO'd any TANKS, and this limited (perhaps division sized) investigation couldn't find a single example. Which may have been part of the motivation to find a replacement in the PIAT.

However, I have read that Britain supplied the Boys to Finland and it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys.

But I guess calling it an "anti-tank" rifle was a bit optimistic by 1942.



Cross

[JohnHale]

Originally Posted by Cross

it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys.


Cross

In the game, I have yet to kill an SdKfz251 with a Boys, let alone a light tank! Nor do I think I've ever immoblised one (which would be more realistic, I feel)

Conversely, when playing against the Italians I have suffered losses to the Solothurn AT Rifle.... :-(( So - was the Boys an inferior ATR as modelled in real life?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

Conversely, when playing against the Italians I have suffered losses to the Solothurn AT Rifle.... :-(( So - was the Boys an inferior ATR as modelled in real life?

The answers are on the web. Take two minutes and find out

The Solothurn cartidge was 20 x 138mm

The Boyes was 13.9 x 99mm


Don

[Cross]

Hi Don,

MC Battalion

Here's an excellent discussion and explanation of the British Motorcycle Battalions 1939/1940:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...ion%201940.htm

MC Scouts

If there's any interest in providing British motorcycle scouts here's OOB for a Recon battalion 1941/1942:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...0to%201942.htm

Regarding the elements of a Recon company it says this:

Each Scout Platoon had a small headquarters consisting of a single Universal Carrier with Bren gun and anti-tank rifle. This carried the Subaltern, driver and an operator from the Signal Platoon, with the Platoon Sergeant and an orderly accompanying on motorcycles.

The single Infantry Platoon provided the Company with a not insubstantial dismounted element. Platoon HQ consisted of a Subaltern, Sergeant and orderly, each on a motorcycle. There were then two 15-cwt trucks, the first carrying a Corporal, rifleman and driver, plus an anti-tank rifle, the latter just a rifleman and driver. Each of the four Sections consisted of a driver and seven men, plus the officer's batman in one Section. Two were commanded by Corporals, two by lance-corporals. The three motorcyclists were each armed with a pistol, the remainder of the Platoon carrying rifles. Each Section was also issued a Bren gun and, in theory, a Thompson submachine gun, though it would be sometime before stocks of the latter became available.

Looking at the OOB for 1943 - 1945, it shows Recon Regiments and Motor Battalions continued to use MCs (with stens) in their Scout Platoons/troops.

MC Utility

I guess this is more of a game design decision. There's plenty of MCs available in almost every British frontline battalion throughout the war. But these would have been mostly single MC without sidecar which have little utility value. A 'Big 4' sidecar may be a fun addition as a utility vehicle, even if it's only available until 1941.



Cross