MA Test Game - Retinues

[Stagger Lee]

Judging by the unit description, the Shuten-doji should be a capable commander:

Shuten-doji

I don't understand the exhaustion field myself, but would a retinue of blood slaves contribute to auto-rout, or would they just fall down and allow him to feed off of them? I think that might be a thematic and grisly way to handle this guy.

If he kills friendly units with his aura, or music, or whatever the field is, his life drain ought to absorb friendly life force, no?

The other problem might be abuse if empowered in blood, but how big a retinue is required for such abuse?

[DrPraetorious]

You know... I have no idea if summoned blood slave *units* can be used to fuel blood magic. Possibly they can.

In any case, no, his life drain does not draw life from friendly units, it's a weapon. His flute is some kind of aura or field, and may even itself be a "spell" - so if I give him a retinue, he may lose it (I don't think so.)

One option would be to give him a retinue of winged monsters of some kind that appear on the edges of the battlefield, thus out of the range of his flute. Possibly even these could be a neutral summon. I'm not sure if either of these alternatives would make the shuten-doji particularly better - or even how strong he is as a thug. I've been told his exhaustion field is fairly powerful, actually.

Originally Posted by Stagger Lee

Judging by the unit description, the Shuten-doji should be a capable commander:

Shuten-doji

I don't understand the exhaustion field myself, but would a retinue of blood slaves contribute to auto-rout, or would they just fall down and allow him to feed off of them? I think that might be a thematic and grisly way to handle this guy.

If he kills friendly units with his aura, or music, or whatever the field is, his life drain ought to absorb friendly life force, no?

The other problem might be abuse if empowered in blood, but how big a retinue is required for such abuse?

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

The *main* purpose of this mod is to motivate people to actually use their national commanders.

Once that is in place (if even to a limited extent), you can balance weaker nations by giving them better national commanders/retinues. At present, having better national commanders is a completely meaningless advantage.

Hmm, looking at the mod, I suppose giving national commanders retinues might promote their use more (certainly be fun), though I'd venture just making the commanders stronger on their own, might work as well. I know I generally opt for recruiting regular indy commanders due to the generally lower gold cost, and their ability to be recruited without forts. If I use a national commander unit, it is because they have the right type of leadership values, greater strategic map move, or decent cost. Other commander unit effects (standard, stealth, glamour, etc) play an important role as well.

[Wrana]

Good idea, I think. I'll gladly take part in testing it, preferably as Shinuyama or Pythium.
Further thoughts may be forthcoming. As for Shuten-doji, theoretically, he can work with a small retinue of some undead who should be immune to his flute effect (but this I have not tested)...

[Wrana]

Considering Septimius' idea about just making national commanders tougher, I think that while it may be viable for some commanders, commanders of civilized nations shouldn't generally be thugs. For example, in Pythium army Serpent Lord may be thuggable, but Legatus Legionis absolutely should not.
Upon reading the mod: right now I think they are mostly OK, except for Bakemono chieftain. 3 archers would be useless, I think. If he gets archers, maybe some 10? Or some other troops, such as Bakemono warriors, who should be useful in smaller numbers. Or just give him some magical bow?
Considering Minotaur Lord, I think he will remain quite thuggable with 1-2 bodyguards. They will just take some attacks on themselves and would attack the same enemy. He won't be prevented from attacking unless bodyguards take 2+ squares by themselves. On the other hand, I think Kappa chief is quite useful even without bodyguards.

[Septimius Severus]

Aparently DrP is going to save making national commanders tougher as a means to balance weaker nations in his balance mod. Probably may not even need to make national commanders necessarily tougher though, simple things like greater map movement, more leadership (or other types of leadership), maybe one or two effects like patrol, or standard, seige, or cold or heat resistance, with/without retinues may be enough to make players think twice at least about using them more.

[Wrana]

Yes, I thought something along these lines. Thug commanders in civilized nations should be summons or specialists such as above-mentioned Kappa chief or Serpent Lord. Black Lords of Ulm are something of an exception, being good commanders as well, but Ulm forging ability allows to make thugs much easier.

[DrPraetorious]

Tough commanders or tough *retinues* could both balance weaker nations.

I'll consider stripping the retinue off the Kappa Chief - I don't think he's much use as a thug (in spite of his recuperation and kung fu), but as an amphibious commander of course you will use him some - but then, as soon as you get any water provinces, you'll switch entirely to indie commanders, guaranteed.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Yes, I thought something along these lines. Thug commanders in civilized nations should be summons or specialists such as above-mentioned Kappa chief or Serpent Lord. Black Lords of Ulm are something of an exception, being good commanders as well, but Ulm forging ability allows to make thugs much easier.