Wishlist: Suppression: HMGs verses Artillery and Infantry

[Cross]

John,

I took your advice and decided to compare double 8cm mortars with the double MG42.

These may be a good comparison because:

Both cost: 25 points
Both have two main weapons in slot 1 & 2
Both have 8 men
Both size 1
Both very common
Both have similar ranges: 2400/2200yds
Both have similar KILL ratings: 11/10

I z-fired the mortars and HMGs 10 times each, into unsuppressed (or suppression 1) group of US infantry. I made sure the accuracy of the hits were equal.

The results were remarkably similar:

8cm Mortars
Target infantry suffered an average suppression of 10.4
Surrounding (splash) infantry an average suppression of 3.9

MG42
Target infantry suffered an average suppression of 12.4
Surrounding (splash) infantry an average suppression of 4.3

*One casualty was sustained in the target hex of the MG z-fire.

Although my test gave the MG a slight edge, it was a limited test, so I consider these results as close enough to make no difference. For arguments sake let’s assume 8cm mortars and MG42s are identical in their suppressive ability, as well as in the criteria listed above.

However, two issues make the MG the superior suppression weapon:

1. Rate of Fire

The MG has double the RoF of the mortar: 6 vs 3

2. Ammunition

The MG has more than double the ammo: 180 vs 80

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Again, we are talking about indirect non-LoS fire here. I am not suggesting that we limit the direct fire ability of MGs at all. They are, and should be deadly in direct fire mode; but they should not be at least twice as effective as artillery when used for indirect fire.

I agree with you that to have MGs use double ammo for z-fire (representing the additional ammo used when firing blindly) would be a step in the right direction.

Another possibility may be to limit z-fire to 2 or 3 times a turn (representing barrel overheat or the extra time/ammo needed for indirect fire).

I would love to see both implemented.

regards,
Simon

[Imp]

Just to clarify the ROF thing.
Lets assume arty is mainly used plotted & not Z firing which you might do with Light Mtrs perhaps in some cases SPMTRS or in desperation in self defence.

The mortar will then have a higher rate of fire at small call times so for all intents & purposes the ROF is about the same.

On cost you could flip the argument & say the mortars ability to be directed & fire smoke are quite cheap. Balanced by lower speed & ammo which if you wish can be compensated for by buying a truck or some ammo resupply.
Of course this makes arty effectivly expensive as it needs a supply train & observer to operate effectivly over time.

[Cross]

You are right about the RoF for plotted, and the damage/suppression would be far greater for plotted fire. Which makes me feel a lot better about MG z-fire situation.

Another thing that makes feel better is the fact that infantry z-fire suppresses the target hex about 10.1, and infantry have 2 target hexes. Compared to MGs which suppress the target hex just a little more and the splash hexes only about 3 or 4 each. Which means MG are not suppressing far more than they should be when compared to infantry rpm.

regards,
Simon

[Cross]

Originally Posted by RERomine

To a certain extent, I agree with you Cross. Using a 1-gun MG-34 team as an example, they have 90 ammo points. The question is how many rounds does an ammo point equate to. Given a 3-man team, I'm going to take a SWAG at 3,600 rounds, which is probably high given they the machine gun, tripod and other personal arms and equipment to carry. For the machine gun ammo alone, that gives us over just 200lbs. The math of 3,600 rounds/90 ammo points gives us 40 rounds per ammo point. Assuming the rounds distribute evenly between the target hex and adjacent hexes that gives us 5-6 rounds per hex. In just one shot, it is questionable how much suppression would be caused by 5-6 unaimed rounds. There is an intangible factor to consider, however. Is the mere sound of an machine gun firing cause suppression? More than likely, yes. The US Army had a training film about the MG-42 during WWII because of its reputation. Soldiers hear machine guns firing and they may go to ground first and then try to find out if it is firing at them. This is the equivalent of suppression.

The ammunition issue you bring up here is interesting.

Let’s assume you are right, that 90 ammo units equals 3,600 rounds. Then one ammo unit equals 40 rounds.

Suppression

If one ammo unit equals 40 rounds of ammunition then that’s a two second burst by a MG42 firing 1200 rpm or a 3 second burst by a 800 rpm MG34.

That burst would give the target hex about 13 rounds of ammo and the other hexes about 4 rounds each. Each round would roughly translate to a suppression point.

A MG can suppress 7 hexes with the use of one ammo unit.
The target hex gets about one third of that suppression and the 6 splash hexes get 2/3.

With six bursts, this would be a total of 12-18 seconds of firing over the course of a 2-3 minute turn.


I don’t think that’s unreasonable. The sound of a HMG firing in my direction would be enough for me to get my head down, or go to ground if I was moving, regardless of the fact that it’s not aimed fire. And even though it may be only a few rounds coming into your area, it’s not like the suppression is high.

Ammunition load-out

The other issue raised is ammunition load-out.

If a 3 or 4 man MG section is carrying 3,600 rounds, then that is a bit high. [/BritishUnderstatement]

German MG ammo boxes were 250 rounds per box. Each box weighed 8.35kg or 18.4 pounds. That’s 14 boxes of ammo weighing 117kg or 258 pounds.

The MG probably weighs about 25 lbs the tri-pod about 45 lbs then there’s extra barrels, rifles etc.

I would say that each man wouldn’t be carrying more than 2 boxes of ammo, and the guys carrying the MG and tri-pod could only carry one.

This means realistic ammo carried for 1 MG:
3 man crew: 1000 rounds (25 ammo units)
4 man crew: 1500 rounds (38 ammo units)
6 man crew: 2500 rounds (63 ammo units)


Perhaps a solution to the incessant chatter of MG z-fire is to bring down the ammo load-out to a more realistic level.

If someone really wants to lean on constant MG suppression then make them pay for additional ammo canisters or ammo trucks.



Cross

[Imp]

Simon if this is aimed at reducing people using Z machine gun fire cant see it helping, may well subject you to more for the short term.
Ammo loadout has an effect on unit cost so the unit will become cheaper so those that like to fire them will just buy more. Admitedly to buy the same amount of ammo as carried now would cost more overall as purchasing extra weapons but without trying you could probably get half the ammo & more weapons to fire them for the same cost meaning slightly more selective with it but easier to get where its useful.

Reducing rounds to 30 means micro management of targets in direct fire, if you played MBT using GLs you would know about this they do need an ammo resupply pretty fast or to select targets carefully.
Reducing ammo loadouts to 60 might be intresting as when defending may well require ammo resupply. I have run out in this situation several times with current loadouts, mind you I have had troops run out a couple of times.

I am guessing here but the game assumes a heavy load of ammo for nearly all infantry weapons to stop micromanagement. It does not model picking up more from the APC or that squad that sacrificed a bit of its firepower to drag support weapon ammo about etc.

[RERomine]

Some of this is getting into the realm of what did they really do. The 3,600 rounds was a swag based on information I found with respect to what M-60 machine gun teams supposedly have done. Ammo can be removed from the cans and carried around the neck, but I don't know if the Germans did that or not. It certainly has a down side of getting the ammo dirty and possibly jamming the gun. It would be possible to carry more ammo around the neck because it keeps the hands free, assuming they weren't used to carry more ammo

This area could be beat to death. How about a German 81mm Mortar Group moving two mortars, 80 rounds of ammo and personal arms? How much did a mortar round weigh? The lightest American round was 6.87lbs according to Wiki. Assuming the German rounds were in that range, counting the two mortars, you have each man toting 100lbs each, before you count personal equipment.

Z Fire in the game is used often in a fairly gamey manner, aided by our overhead view of everything. It is one thing for a unit to Z Fire at someone they saw move to a concealed position, but entirely different if it is used because someone 1km away, without a radio, saw them. It is just the nature of the game. Some realism has to be sacrificed for playability.

In reality, they probably didn't pepper areas unless they had personal knowledge someone is there. That is the whole idea behind tracer rounds, so they can tell they are putting rounds where they want. They go out the window if you can't see the impact site. Maybe doing away with Z Fire for locations out of LOS is the answer. The AI doesn't use it anyhow. It could still be used if you can see the target hex, without specifically being able to see a target, but otherwise do away with it. You still keep splash for out of LOS areas to account for ricochets. More than one person has been killed by them.

[Cross]

John,

I wasn’t suggesting changing MG ammo load-out from 90 to 30. I agree with you that perhaps 60 would be more sensible, which would still allow a single MG to fire twice a turn for 30 turns, or non-stop for 10 turns.

MG Cost

A German double MG42 currently costs 25 points. If that unit went from 180 to 120 ammo, my guesstimate is that it may cost about 21 or 22 points; which is hardly a great savings over the current price. And anyway, purchasing limits are much easier to regulate/agree to, than weapon usage.

Ammunition Conservation

I don’t see ammunition conservation for crew weapons in SP as “micro-management”.

Mortars and artillery guns already have very limited ammo supply. Mortars have only 5 turns of ammunition. Why should the similar crewed (tri-pod) MGs get a free ride with 15 turns of ammunition? Though, I understand that 14 or 15 boxes of ammo weigh about 260 lbs compared to 320 lbs for 40 mortar bombs.

SP is a wargame that - to some extent - models ammunition supply. One of the major problems and limitations for MG crews was ammunition. They had to learn to husband it, particularly when your weapon can potentially fire off 4 or 5 boxes of ammo (weighing about 80 lbs) in one minute.

I think the current climate of firing off tons of MG ammunition in z-fire would certainly be reduced by a more limited ammo supply.

Encouraging gamers to sometimes think about husbanding MG ammo - like they already have to with artillery - will only enhance the game.

It’s probably all academic anyway. But a good discussion none the less…


Cross

[Imp]

The reason I count front line troops with limited ammo as micro management & not atry is because they tend to opfire. So if ammo is short you have to decide each turn if you want them to & tweak ranges etc.

I have no idea what is a sensible load suggested 60 simply as in meetings ammo should normaly last & might stop the odd extreme range shot to conserve ammo some people take so be more realistic, mind you I like those steel rains a coming.
Defend & delays though vs Ruskie Jap human wave attacks the linch pin of your defence is going to run out as its firing constantly trying to hold back the hordes.
Oh heck what was plan B.

[Cross]

Infantry
I remembered an old thread that said rifle ammo units are 1 for 1 round, times the number of rifles in the section; and MG ammo units represent a burst of 5 rounds. But I assume this was for the squad LMG, which would mean it had 450 rounds available.

As one turn is about 2-3 minutes, this would mean that infantry are definitely being careful with ammo in firefights. But as you suggested, the game designers probably didn’t want ammo trucks all over the battlefield.

MGs
I can’t believe the same 1:5 ratio applies to crew MGs because they obviously cause a bit more than 3 times the suppression of a squad LMG, and as a crew served gun you’d expect them to carry and use a lot more ammo.

While we are doing all this speculating…let’s run with the 3 times more than LMGs, then perhaps 1 HMG ammo unit equals a burst of 15 rounds, in which case 90 units equals 1,350 rounds. 15 rounds would be a 1 second burst for a MG34.

This load-out, of just over 5 boxes of ammo, would also make sense as a reasonable amount that a 4 man crew would carry. Though, 5 boxes are only one minutes worth for a MG42 at full auto. But this would match the conservative use of infantry ammo.

Z-fire
The game was designed before z-fire was introduced. It could be that HMGs were considered more of an infantry direct fire weapon before z-fire, but are now more of a suppression/support weapon post z-fire, making them more closely aligned to mortars. And as such perhaps they should now suffer the same ammo supply issues as mortars?

I don’t know…It’s fun to kick this stuff around, but in the end it’s what makes a better game; and that may be in the eye of the beholder.

I think most – but not all - would prefer to limit z-fire, and ammo is certainly a way to do that. Some players would love to see ammo become more of a concern, even for infantry; others would prefer that ammo wasn’t something they had to worry about. But for those who don’t want to run out of ammo, there’s a little button in ‘Preferences’ called “Ammo Limit”, turn it OFF, and you and your opponent can fire z-fire all day long


Cross

[Imp]

limiting Z fire would need some sort of trust & think could exempt troops as only time I tend to do that is moving adjacent on occasion say in woods. The game makes it that inacurate with no LOS can easily pin your own troops which is correct they are blind firing.
Otherwise Z Fire main uses.
1) Firing through smoke normaly towards targets you had a LOS to, what Z fire was mainly introduced to allow I think.
2) MG is in transit misjudged LOS but important so fire anyway hoping splash hits
3) Soft targets in a group in LOS will Z fire if an empty hex may cause more splash especialy if they are running to keep them at it.
4) Firing at a hidden firer as in someone recieved fire from that hex but not visible.
5) If I know an enemy squad made it near my MG will attempt to pin it as the MG will probably not win the close quarters firefight.
6) On odd ocasion if my troops have blundered into others near by may try & pin them to save my troops from counter attack.

What I think you are objecting to is blind firing all or nearly all every turn just to fire them, I have not come across this very often seems a rare tactic.
Intrestingly as never really thought about all the above with the possible exception of 2 seem reasonable.