Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

186 Daimler Dingo [scout veh] - received in "early 1942" (1/43).
Specifications should be corrected like in the British OOB: crew 2(now 4), size 2(3), weight 10(0).
Radio should be 90 or 92 - it was most common.

Was its Bren, normally shooting through a slot in armour, really an AAMG? The vehicle doesn't seem to have any AA mounting, so it would have to be fired "from hand" (same for the British OOB).

187 Ironside Mk.III [scout veh] - should be named Humber LRC III. The armament was Bren AAMG (now: .30 AAMG) and it had smoke mortar. Crew was 3 (4). It has weight 0.
It would be good to give it a new icon (also to the British ones - now it is like Humber Scout car).

They were used by the Polish in a small quantity - according to Magnuski, only "towards the end of the war" (no precise info when), and rather they weren't used in combat.

As scout vehicles, also Otters were used by one unit in Italy (#125 from Canadian OOB) - in 11/43 until the end (radio=91).


cavalry tanks

202 Cromwell VII [cavalry tank] - according to Magnuski, Cromwells with 75mm guns were received probably around 6/44 (now 3/44), and they were first of all Cromwell IV model.

The Cromwells were used from 1/44 for training - but they were probably 6pdr Cromwells I or III, that could be added (until 5/44)

There were also used CS Cromwells VI with 95mm howitzers, that should be added (class eg. 104 CS cruiser tank). For sure they were received as replacements by 9/44 - it isn't clear, if there were none before that date.

Formations 147, 148 Recce Tank Trp /Sqdn should be modified according to a first date of availability.

In Recce Tank Sqdn there were only 4 troops (renamed to platoons) - their number was reduced due to low personnel.

There should also be two CS tanks in a squadron - there could be made additional entry of Cromwell IV unit as CS tank, before advent of Cromwells VI (it shouldn't be much problem, if in 1-5/44 there will be ordinary 6pdr Cromwells and support 75mm ones)

From 11/44 there should be used Challengers in Recce Tank Sqdn - they were used as a fourth platoon (in 1945 at least), so we'll need a new Squadron.

Unit 546 Challenger [gun tank] should be reclassified as 123 Cruiser Gun tank, so that it is not mixed with Fireflies.


misc

189 Cdo Support - better picture is 553, showing 2in mortar

193 Commando Sniper - it uses anachronistic 1939-era picture. Maybe it should be changed to standard British sniper 12113 (which in turn could be changed to SMLE with a scope - now it's probably newer rifle taken from SP2). Or maybe it could be 30570 (used for 175 Para Sniper)

210 Para Support,
725, 726 3in Mortar - picture 56 of a generic (Soviet) mortar should be replaced with 3in, eg. 601 or 21150

[Pibwl]

misc. less important changes

231 Honey Ammo Tank - should be renamed to Stuart (name Honey applied to early versions rather, and was unknown by the Polish)

236 152mm A Nadbrze
237 105mm A Nadbrze - I suggest more understandable English name rather, like: "...mm Coast Art", "Coast Gun". A name: "A Nadbrze" isn't a valid abbreviation in Polish, just cut words (A[rtyleria? Armata?] Nadbrze[żna]). Eventually "A.Nadbrz.", with points.

238 Lesny Bunkier (forest bunker) - if we keep a Polish name, more natural is "Lesny bunkier".
13077

239 Budynek - might be translated to Building

240 Bunkier - dates 11/39-12/46 don't fit to Polish armament - probably it should be 1/30-10/39. Pistol doesn't seem necessary.

251 Polish HQ - 1940 HQ could not use wz.29 carbines and Vis pistols. The carbine could be replaced with 112 Lebel and pistol with 114.

264, 265, 266 Sniper - it uses 1939-era picture - see unit 193 Commando Sniper above.

278, 279 Partisans - to me, partisans armed with rare Mannlicher and Berthier rifles are redundant if we have otherwise identical standard unit 340.

282 Rifle Squad - its weapon #60 wz.38M rifle was self-loading rifle and therefore should have kill=2 (now 1), BUT such unit was extremely rare and should have radio=3(now 2).


I've just found, that only Paras, Marines, Bicycle Squads and Mot Rifles use a weapon 86 defensive Granat wz.24 Ob, while all the other infantry uses offensive 87 Granat wz.24 Za. In fact, all the infantry used both defensive and offensive grenades, and with offensive grenades only they will be inferior to enemy (I've started a separate thread on grenades in general http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49960).

Since defensive grenades are generally used by other countries, I think, that offensive Granat wz.24 Za is redundant and all cases of its usage should be changed to Granat wz.24 Ob (renamed to "Granat obronny").
And since 87 seems a standard slot for hand grenades, a new defensive grenade could be placed in this slot.

A standard was two defensive and two offensive grenades for a soldier, so in units which has two slots with grenades, the second entry of grenades could be changed to lighter #80 Granaty (that could be renamed to "granat zaczepny" ie. offensive). This concerns units 284, 285, 289, 290, 293, 306.


330 105mm Gun Bty - correct picture of wz.29 gun is 23598 (in Finnish service). They were used at least from 1934 (now 1/35)

332 100mm Gun Bty - should be used from 1/30 (1/35)

333 81mm Mortars - mortar crews should rather have #173 wz.98 Carabine, than rifle


360 Ursus 'A' [truck] - used from 1/30(1/35). Name could be written just Ursus A

362 Jeep - earliest serial Jeeps were manufactured from late 1941 - I don't know when the Poles got them, but I guess some 1/42 (now: 7/40). Some Austin Tilly (#286 in the British oob) could be copied to fill a gap from 7/40

Michal

[Pibwl]

Another part of shallow digging through plethora of infantry units... Their structures and weapons should be examined deeply, but maybe next year.

287 Rifle Squad - picture 30211 without LMG will be more appropriate

310, 311 Obrona Naradowa - should be Narodowa.

313 Patrol - has a picture of marksman. 15000 could be, as used for #312

318 Rifle Section - picture 30553 seems better, than some soldiers with Sherman (used as mech patrol)

322, 323 Engineer Sec - soldiers on the photo looks rather like Germans to me. Maybe 30553 will do.

324, 327 Engineer Squad - photo 30211 looks better for a French period

325, 326 Engineer Squad - photo 30220 looks better for engineers (not charging on bayonets)


Off-map Artillery

Now 1939 artillery is organized this way:
- Lt arty - 75 mm FG
- Med how - 100 mm FH, 105 mm FG (wz.13), 105 mm FG (wz.29)
- Hvy arty - 120 mm, 155 mm FH, 220 mm

A problem is, that in fact 100 mm FH were used in Light Arty Regiments (along with 75 mm guns), while 105 mm FG were in heavy arty units (along with 155mm FH)

If we want to be closer to original, 100 mm FH battery should be reclassified as Light Arty. There would be available a whole Lt Arty Bn with three 4-gun batteries of 75 mm or 100 mm, which is correct.

A bigger problem is, that heavy divisional arty, using 105 mm FG/155 mm FH, had a different structure (3-gun batteries), than C-in-c Heavy Arty, using same guns (4-gun batteries), plus 120 mm guns and 220 mm mortars. There's a page on 105mm guns, indicating this problem http://derela.republika.pl/105mm_wz1..._schneider.htm

There didn't exist battalions with three 3-gun 105mm batteries, like formation 358 in a present oob.
Unfortunately, it seems impossible to create real mixed off-map divisional Heavy Arty Battalions with one battery of three 105mm guns (wz.13 or wz.29) and one battery of 155mm FH.

That's why I suggest to use 3-gun 105mm and 155mm batteries as single batteries only, and not to include them in any Battalion. Unit #331 155mm How Bty should be reclassified to 10 Off-map arty, like 105mm batteries. If a player would like to create original divisional Heavy Arty Bn, he'd have to take one 3-gun 105mm Bty and one 3-gun 155mm Bty separately.

There should be created new four-gun units, modified from #99 105mm Gun Bty, #330 105mm Gun Bty and #331 155mm How Bty. All these four-gun batteries should be classified as Heavy off-map arty. Of them, 155mm howitzers should be most common.

Unit 416 120mm How Bty should be given a fourth gun to be true (you can read about them here: http://derela.republika.pl/120mm_wz78-09-31.htm).

Then, if we add one more battery to a battalion 357, there will be available heavy arty battalions with three 4-gun batteries of 105mm, 120mm or 155mm, which is correct, or with three 2-gun 220mm batteries, also correct.


Suggested changes to formations to reflect changes above:
form. 358 Med Howitzer Bn - to be removed, as non-existing. A problem is, that it might be on a pick list in assault mode (sometimes there is Lt or Hvy Bn instead).
form. 365 Med How Bty - rename eg. "Hvy Art Bty/3", "Hvy Art Bty(3)" - it will cover divisional heavy arty of 105mm guns and 155mm FH
form. 357 Heavy Art Bn - add the third battery and change template unit (331) to Off-map Hvy Arty, eg. 416
form. 367 Hvy Art Battery - rename eg. "Hvy Art Bty/4" and change template unit


332 100mm Gun Bty - should be named 100mm How Bty or FH Bty, and used from 1/30 (now 1/35)

333 81mm Mortars - if there's a choice, a secondary weapon should be shorter 144 wz.29 Carbine


Michal

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

186 Daimler Dingo [scout veh] - received in "early 1942" (1/43).
Specifications should be corrected like in the British OOB: crew 2(now 4), size 2(3), weight 10(0).
Radio should be 90 or 92 - it was most common.

Was its Bren, normally shooting through a slot in armour, really an AAMG? The vehicle doesn't seem to have any AA mounting, so it would have to be fired "from hand" (same for the British OOB).

Some Dingos did have an AA mount, called the Lakeman mount.
It was not popular, probably of limited effectiveness, and no doubt removed by many crew to make room in that tight cab.
So I agree that the Dingo is not the best choice for an AA mount. There's plenty of other allied vehicles that I'd give AA mounts before the Dingo.

Just an FYI

Cross

[Pibwl]

349 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with wz.28 LMG.

350 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with German MG (it would also better fit for unit 347, than a current one)

352 Part. Mortars - picture shows 82mm mortar. I'm attaching a picture for Polish 46mm GL.

A word about formations:
form. 342 Gwardia Ludowa, 343 GL Partisan Co - since 1/44 its name was Armia Ludowa (AL). Gwardia Ludowa existed since 5/42, so we should add earlier formations with this name.

It seems from morale & experience modifier, that somebody liked communist GL and despised rightist NSZ (formation 344)

- well, I don't like nationalist and grossly anti-Semitic partisans either, but -10 penalty in morale & experience isn't justified, neither is +5 in case of GL, which were no better, than the rest. Since Poland has high base morale 75, IMO it's enough for partisans as well.
The partisans had limited possibility of training, so as for experience (with base level 70), I would say, that GL and NSZ partisans should have -10, AK partisans (best organized, form. 340, 341) -5 (=average level 65, eg. of Yugoslavian partisans).


364 Carrier HMG was in fact not a scout vehicle, but an infantry support vehicle, used in separate platoons (4-6 HMG carriers). And they were introduced to the British (and Polish) army only in 1943/44 (now 7/40).
I'm attaching a proposed improved picture of a vehicle in actual configuration - for all countries (a current one looks like some makeshift, with a shielded HMG)


368 Polski Fiat 508 [utility veh.] - picture is 2-seater Italian variant, I'm attaching a correct one.
It could be AT wheel class - it was 4x2, but it had some off-road capabilities (like German Kubelwagen).
Precisely, they were produced from 1935 (1/30).
Earlier, a Ford T could be used.

369 Polski Fiat 618 [APC wheel] - used from 1937 only (now 1/30).
Formations 263, 264 Lt Truck Sec, Plt (Available: 01/30-12/46) should be corrected then (I don't think we need such unit earlier, medium trucks should be enough)

370 Polski Fiat 621 [med truck] - picture is generic SP-1 Renault truck, I'm attaching a proper one.
It was produced from 1932 only (1/30) (earlier there should be #360 Ursus A).


374 30cwt GS Truck [med truck] - 30cwt trucks were rather rare in wartime British and Polish armies, especially in combat units. Maybe 375 Bedford should be re-classified to med truck instead (commonly used in field), especially, that it is used only in two Heavy Truck formations.

375 Bedford - much closer for Bedford QL is icon 674 in SPMBT (same for British oob). If it represents Bedford QL, it should be AT/wheel. Maybe it should be made a Medium Truck - if so, a data of Bedford should be changed to correspond with a Medium Truck (we have already #383 heavy truck in this period).

376 3t Chevy 157 [heavy truck] - it might be called Chevrolet 157 (Chevy abbreviation wasn't known in Poland). It was used only from 1/39 (1/30). In fact it was medium truck, the same class, as Polski Fiat 621 - and it was faster (80 km/h - now speed 15).
If we need Heavy Truck formations 267,268 before 1939, we could create Berliet CBA (up to 35 km/h) - I'm attaching a photo.

381 15cwt GS Truck - much more common, than pictured Chevrolet C15 CMP was Bedford MW (picture 30123) or Fordson WOT2


384 Humber Gun Quad - correct name is Morris Quad FAT naturally, if we want to name a manufacturer (could also be Ford or Chevrolet FGT/CGT).


387 Bunkier - photo 29710 looks much more like Polish bunker (which is in fact, because I did this picture myself long ago )


400 37mm AT-Gun - introduced only in mid-1936 (now 1/30).
If we need to feel a gap, #399 37mm wz.18 might be used as AT-gun in 1930-35 (though in fact, there were no AT-guns in Poland at that time at all). On the other hand, during a French period more modern guns were used (below).
Name 37mm wz.18 should be supplemented with "gun", because it was not a standalone mark designation.

401 25mm AT-Gun - radio should be 2(1) - it was standard AT gun in France.

402 47mm AT-Gun - photo is a Japanese gun, and armament is 47mm Bohler. It should be a French gun (weapon #21 47mm SA37 (L53) from French oob), picture 203, radio=0.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

A word about formations:
form. 342 Gwardia Ludowa, 343 GL Partisan Co - since 1/44 its name was Armia Ludowa (AL). Gwardia Ludowa existed since 5/42, so we should add earlier formations with this name.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gwardia Ludowa be moved to spob09 Polish Communists/LWP?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Polish LWP basically "grow out" of the Gwardia Ludowa? If so, then I think the pre-1944 partisan forces are already in that OOB.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by zastava128

Wouldn't it be better that the Gwardia Ludowa be moved to spob09 Polish Communists/LWP?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Polish LWP basically "grow out" of the Gwardia Ludowa? If so, then I think the pre-1944 partisan forces are already in that OOB.

You are partly right - Gwardia Ludowa (later Armia Ludowa - People Guards/Army) were communist partisans, conceived in Moscow. In July 1944 it officially merged with the 1st Polish Army in the USSR, creating so-called LWP (Polish People Army - it wasn't an official name however, official was just Polish Army).
(A distinction may be unclear, but there are other words for army as a military unit - "armia", like the 1st Polish Army, and an army as armed forces - "wojsko", although "armia" is colloquially used also in the second meaning).

In my opinion, though, since GL/AL units operated in the country, there's no need to put them into a separate LWP OOB and treat as allies. The idea isn't bad, though.

By the way: a flag representing LWP, with a hammer and sickle, is a bit offensive, since it was never a sign of Polish communists, who used just a national flag. However, I have no better idea. Maybe there could be used Piast's eagle, used by the LWP on caps and badges, but a distinction may be hardly seen: http://histmag.org/grafika/articles6...ly5/kurica.png

On the other hand, ordinary Polish flag should have no eagle at all - a flag with eagle was used only as a merchant ensign and a flag of Polish official representatives abroad.

By the way: it could be noted, that despite both groups of partisan movement were unfriendly, and regarded themselves as communist renegades vs fascists, fights between them were sporadic.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

By the way: a flag representing LWP, with a hammer and sickle, is a bit offensive, since it was never a sign of Polish communists, who used just a national flag. However, I have no better idea.

Exactly, and nobody had a better idea when we first put it in either.

Don

[Pibwl]

However, it's worth IMO to remove eagle from the ordinary flag.

Back to suggestions:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

If we need to feel a gap, #399 37mm wz.18 might be used as AT-gun in 1930-35 (though in fact, there were no AT-guns in Poland at that time at all). On the other hand, during a French period more modern guns were used (below).
Name 37mm wz.18 should be supplemented with "gun", because it was not a standalone mark designation.

I should have added, that 37mm Puteaux was indeed used in a small numbers as an infantry gun in Poland - and its designation in towed version was in fact wz.16. It was withdrawn by 1929, so we can use it only if AI needs to have AT guns.

335 CKM wz.30 Pl - radio should be 22 - it was a standard weapon (or 32, since HMGs 406, 407, 408 have radio=30).

403 120mm How - should be 120mm Gun or Canon (eventually "armata" in Polish - in lower case). Better icon is 2116 - it was rather long-barrel piece (on a photo the barrel is in a transport position).
Radio should be 92(91) - it was a rare gun.

407 CKM wz.10 Pl - should be wz.10/28. They were withdrawn by the end of 1936 (sold probably to Spain).

408 CKM wz.25 Pl - it should be original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss rather (there were still 2600 wz.14 in 1939 and only 1200 of wz.25, half of them as TMGs).

Weapon #121 should have kill=5 like weapon #100 and should be named 8mm wz.25 HMG (or MMG - though in Poland all were classified as "heavy"). BTW, kill 7 of wz.28 MMG is not justified.

A word on HMG/MMG:

Most HMG/MMGs in the game have HE kill=5 (Vickers, Soviet Maxim, M1917, Mle.14), and I assume, that MG34 (8) and MG42 (10) are better due to higher ROF (some 800 rpm in case of MG34).

But German OOB #122 MG08/18 HMG, which has 6, should have HEK similar to other water-cooled MGs, or even lower, since its ROF is quoted at 300-450 rpm (Wikipedia says 450-500, German Wikipedia 400-450, which is also relatively low). For Vickers also 450-500 rpm is quoted, but for M1917: 450-600. Also for Polish wz.30 (a Browing clone) 600 rpm is given and it has HEK=6. For Russian Maxim 520-600 is given. [I mostly use WarMachine 97 Machine guns of WWI as a reference]

So, if 500 rpm = roughly 5 HEK, I think, that MG08 should have HEK=5, and there is a basis to increase HEK of Browning M1917 and wz.30 and possibly Russian Maxim to 6. On the other hand German MG08 could have increased accuracy due to its ultra-heavy sledge mount.

Returning back to the Polish:
weapon 123 7.92 wz.08 MMG should have HEK=5 (now 8), and it is HMG in fact.
weapon 124 7.92wz.10/28HMG - kill 9 is not justified at all - it should be 6 (Russian Maxim converted to 7.92mm)

Michal

[Pibwl]

1939 guns took me several days:


398 37mm wz.18 [inf gun] - name should be wz.16 and a secondary weapon should be French 112 Lebel

409 65mm Mtn Gun - ending date should be 10/39 (10/49, an evident typo). Radio should be 91(92) - very rare, used only by mountain units.

--------
75 mm artillery:
Only two types of 75mm pieces were used by the Polish by 1939, and both were field guns: wz.1897 (French) used by artillery regiments and wz.02/26 used by cavalry and in infantry regiments. None were specifically assigned to AT role.
You can read more at http://derela.republika.pl/artillery.htm

410 75mm Inf-Gun - as infantry gun, an ordinary 75mm wz.02/26 field gun was used, so a weapon (7.5cm leIG) should be replaced with #64 75mm vz.02 FG (differing in longer range).
If it's important: ammo load in limber and caisson in infantry units were 80 shells (plus 36 shells in caisson's limber).
Icon should be changed to 2111 (as unit 412 - longer barrel)
Speed 1 is correct - it could be pulled by the crew.

Weapon 064 75mm vz.02 FG - correct name is wz02/26 FG
It could receive Sabot round with pen=7, range=60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role).
Then, the gun can receive few Sabot rounds, although not necessarily.

Form. 338 Infantry Guns could be renamed to Infantry Gun Pl
Precisely, they should be given 6-horse limbers instead of wagons, but then the player could also choose inappropriate artillery tractors.
Maybe a limber could be doubled as a kind of wagon?

I'm attaching some proposed pictures of wz.02/26, for 32135 is hard to recognize. It could replace ugly 21172 - also for unit #412 below.

390 Fort - 7.5cm leIG should not be used in Poland at all.
Polish gun-armed fortifications were very rare, but probably first of all, original Russian 76mm wz.02 field guns were used there (without special mountings).
Weapon #32 7.5cm leIG could be therefore converted to 76mm wz.02 FG, with the same specs as #64 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26)

Otherwise, main armament of the fort should be just replaced with 064 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26).


411 100mm How - was used since 1/30 (now 1/35). Maybe we could use a full name Howitzer? (or Polish "haubica", in lower case).
Icon 2115 with a shorter barrel would be more appropriate IMO (2116 rather fits for #403 120mm gun)

412 75mm Howitzer - should be 75mm Field Gun or Canon (or Polish "armata") or 75mm wz02/26 FG.
In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 32 in a caisson's limber).

413 75mm Howitzer - same as above as for a name, but 75mm wz.1897 FG.
It should be used since 1930, being Polish most common field gun (now: only from 11/39).
Secondary weapon should be changed to Polish carbine 144 (even if it wasn't used in France - or we can create two units with different rifles to be precise).
In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 24 in a caisson's limber).
Icon should be 2112, as French OOB unit 28 (it had quite long barrel).
Better picture is 28018 or 23083 with wooden wheels - current one is French motorized version (same for unit #329 75mm FG Bty)

Weapon 033 75mm vz.97 FG - correct name is wz.1897.
Sabot range should be increased from 20 to 60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role, shooting full AP shots).


414 75mm Field Gun [AT gun] - firstly, in Poland there were no 75mm field guns specifically assigned to AT role, they had no special sights (apart from a handful of guns) and there was little AP ammo available for them (20 per battery).
The same role could be fulfilled by 75mm Inf Gun or Howitzer above, with Sabot ammo, which would offer longer HE range (they would have to have less AP ammo - but it would expend its 8 AP rounds for first few targets anyway). In fact, 75 mm guns could destroy most tanks with HE in 1939.

If we decide to keep it as AT gun, it could be used since 1/30 (now: 1/35), and fill a gap before advent of 37mm ATG.
But then, wz.02/26 gun should be eventually replaced by much more numerous wz1897 FG (as above) - a name of weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG can be just changed without harm to other units using it (the river craft used wz.97 guns as well in fact).


In all 1939 guns, rifle should be replaced with shorter #144 carbine - it applies to units 399, 400, 403, 410, 411, 412, 414, 415, also to 405 wz.35 AT-Rifle

By the way: there was no weapon, like #221 wz.29 rifle at all. It should be eventually renamed to wz.98a Rifle (a modernized version of wz.98 Rifle), or changed in all units to #178 wz.98 Rifle.


391 Strongpoint - its weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG could be also exchanged to newly added 76mm wz.02 FG or 064 75mm wz.02/26 (like #390 Fort above). Such amount of AP rounds is wrong - it could be a handful at best.


416 120mm How Bty - it should receive fourth gun, and a proper name is 120mm Gun Bty.
Radio should be 91 (now 92) - it was very rare.

418 wz.25 AAMG [2] - it should be wz.14 (see remarks for 408 CKM wz.25 Pl).
Hotchkiss AAMGS were mainly used in stationary AA defence (along with wz.08 Maxims), but in infantry units a standard was wz.30 HMG on convertible AA mount, which should be added as new weapon (it should be also an armament of #548 Taczanka).

420 13.2mm AAMG - there were few used, by the Navy, on stationery naval mounts, in coastal defence. To be removed IMO.

423 194mm Gun Bty - it must be French allied support, but more probable would be a support of ordinary 155mm GPF guns (unit 220 in French oob, with changed class).