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  #1  
Old August 15th, 2014, 03:46 PM

PvtJoker PvtJoker is offline
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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

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Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
The design guides are a starting baseline, and not gospel. So if your team actually had laser RF on some of their RCL - go large. The points calculator will charge for them, after all.
Yes, quite right, I wrote that before thinking about the ranging rifles and didn't check if it they were modeled. So, I apologize for my ignorance.
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  #2  
Old August 16th, 2014, 08:02 AM

PvtJoker PvtJoker is offline
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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

Quick note about radio values: medium tanks and MBTs have too low radio values. Even during WW2 all medium tanks and the StuG IIIG assault guns in Finnish service had radios, mostly because all vehicles purchased from Germany had one (even ex-Soviet T-34s). The few vehicles captured directly from the Soviets received radios in Finland. Tanks purchased from the Soviet Union in the 1950s and 1960s received two-way sets in Finland.

On the other hand, infantry squads and MGs have too high radio values (60-70) up to 1980s. Finnish infantry did not have platoon radios until the early 1960s.
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  #3  
Old August 26th, 2014, 05:45 AM

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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

And now for the AFV notes:

The situation of the T-26 tanks is problematic. These vehicles were declared obsolete already in July 1944 and took large losses in summer 1944. They should really be placed in the obsolete tank category, since it is very unlikely that these death traps would have been used in combat in the 1950s. However, I am hesitant to do that because the AI pick list apparently includes light tanks even in the 1950s.

T-28e has a wrong main gun, should be L-10. I will assume use of Finnish AP, which was superior to captured Soviet WW2 AP.

T-34's have the ZiS-3 as the main gun. I will copy the correct F-34 from Russian OOB. Although test data for the F-34 is not available, AP Penetration with Finnish WW2 ammo can be interpolated to be 11 and a small amount of WW2 HEAT with penetration 8 was probably available for the T-34s post-WW2. I will also extend the range of the gun by 10 hexes to 70 in order to better match the long range ballistics of the Finnish AP. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANK_GUNS.htm#F-34

The radio codes of WW2 vintage tanks are not very good. The Pz IVj was the most common WW2 medium tank in Finnish service, T-34-85 was second. The T-34 M42 was represented by exactly one tank (...). I will modify them so that hordes of T-34s are no longer selected.

Sabot penetration values of British 20-pounder and 77mm HV gun seem to be too low at muzzle; somebody probably made a poor job at extrapolation. I have used consensus numbers from web sources.

The T-54s in Finnish service were actually model T-54-3 a.k.a. M1951. Due to purchase date (1959) people have often assumed that they were T-54Bs, but T-54-3 has been confirmed by serious sources. Also, they lacked gun stabilizers, which closes the case. They were never modernized in Finland apart from the ammo and radios, so units 410 and 411 have wrong FC and RF values.

The penetrations of the PT-76's D56TS (weapon 086) are quite strange. It appears that the Sabot value is for the WW2 vintage BR-354P APCR and the AP value is for the 1950s streamlined BR-354N APCR. The HEAT value is probably for the 1955 fin-stabilized BK-354М. I'm going to change that so that the AP value (12) is for the post-WW2 BR-354 APCBC and the Sabot value (15, same range as AP) for the BR-354N. Source: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/ПТ-76, except BK-354М. I have no idea if the Soviets actually sold the latest BR-354N and BK-354М to Finland, but I assume so like the original OOB designer did...

The modernization of the T-55 in late 1980s did not include armor upgrades beyond the addition of side skirts, but it did include the Mecar M1000 APFSDS round. At the time it was the most advanced APFSDS round available for the D-10 gun with a high L/D monoblock tungsten alloy penetrator. The only estimation I have found about it is 350 mm @ 2000 meters @ 0 degree. Official figure was penetration of NATO Triple Heavy target at 3000 meters, which unfortunately does not tell us much. So, I took the newer Israeli/Romanian M309 round from the Romanian OOB as a rough guideline using available estimates and ended up with Sabot penetration 45. There were also rumors in the 1990s that the M1000 was supposed to penetrate T-72 turret at 1000 meters and with Sabot Pen 45 that is possible.

The T-55MS also got a new Swedish integrated FCS, the same in fact as the modernized version of the Ikv 91 tank destroyer, which has FC30. Also, according to tankers who served on both the T-55MS and the T-72M1, the former had a much better FCS. T-55MS is still used in small numbers, so I have made it available until 2020.

125mm D-81 penetrations assume Soviet domestic standard rounds. The HEAT numbers are too high (BK-14M HEAT was the best exported from the USSR). Finland also never purchased new HEAT rounds for the gun in the 1990s but continued to use the BK-14M.

No decisions yet on BMP-2 modernization. Probably it will not happen in the current economy, but I will push it a couple of years forward just in case.

XA-180 PaSi still very much in use. Modernization closer to XA-203 standard is planned, but has not started yet.

Vehicle grade Gen3 image intensifier is used on the XA-203 RWS, so Vision 30.

The FC etc. values for the AMV should be the same for both armaments, since the turret is the same. The .50 cal armed version had lower values for some reason.

BTR-50PUM1 was in Light APC class. It is a command vehicle, so FO Vehicle class in the game (although for many command vehicles that does not actually make much sense)

Leopard 2A5FIN was cancelled. Instead, Leopard 2A6 were bought from the Netherlands, so I copied the unit and the 120mm L55 gun from the Dutch OOB.

I may have forgotten some minor changes I made... But as usual: http://youtu.be/nnwWKkNau4I
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  #4  
Old August 26th, 2014, 08:02 AM

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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

AA stuff:

Fixed 7.62 M/31-40 AAMG HE kill (double barrel with 900 rpm for each barrel) and upped FC to 2 (as far as iron AA sights go, it had a fairly sophisticated one).

Added 7.62 M/32 AAMG. This is the M/32-33 used in AAMG mode (AA sights were standard issue and the tripod could be used in AA mode).

Added 7.62mm quadruple Maxim AAMG truck. These ex-Soviet AAMGs were still warehoused in the late 1940s.

Fixed 20mm VKT AAG HE kill (it was very low for a twin barrel 20mm gun). AP pen 4 (same cartridge as Lahti ATR and German 20mm AA guns).

Added 20mm FlaK 38 AA gun.

Increased FC of 30mm Hispano-Suiza and Bofors M/59 AA guns to 12. They had a electronic predictor sight (Galileo).

Gave the modernized 35mm M/88 (Oerlikon) an LRF, which it does have, and more FC to reflect the GunKing digital FCS. Also added LRF to later radar based versions.

Increased FC of all Radar controlled AA guns. Specifically increased the FC of the 57mm AA gun under radar control (the RPK-1M1 / Flap Wheel was a fairly sophisticated AAA FCS by 1960s standards). On the minus side that makes the Radar FC values "incompatible" with official OOBs, which have lower (too low, IMO) values for the same systems.

Increased the FC of NSV AAMG to 3. It has a pretty good reflector sight, which can be used with image intensifiers. The same sight is used on NSVs installed on Finnish vehicles like the XA-18x series, so they get the same FC/RF values as well. I also gave it AP rounds (value 2). The 12.7x108mm B-32 AP can easily penetrate more than 20mm of RHA at muzzle, so in game terms the AP rounds are superior to HE kill 1 up to 450 meters and even beyond.

Increased FC of 23mm M/95 AA gun (modernized ZU-23-2). It has a fully digital FCS with integrated LRF and TI. (It's just too short ranged by 21st Century standards.)

Disabled Itpsv 2010 AA. Modernization of the Itpsv 91 was cancelled. (The T-55 chassis is obsolescent and spare parts availability for the radar is poor. Installing a new radar would cost a lot for just 7 vehicles.)

Disabled unit 208. Both the ItOhj 86 types were Iglas.

Added Stinger RMP block 1 (FIM-92E) from 2015. http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/ff...df?MOD=AJPERES

As usual, I may have not documented all minor changes I've made.
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  #5  
Old March 1st, 2015, 03:23 PM

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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by PvtJoker View Post
And now for the AFV notes:
125mm D-81 penetrations assume Soviet domestic standard rounds. The HEAT numbers are too high (BK-14M HEAT was the best exported from the USSR). Finland also never purchased new HEAT rounds for the gun in the 1990s but continued to use the BK-14M.
A friend of mine who was a T-72 gunner confirmed, the older round (1986) was the one that matches the HEAT penetration. So 125mm D81T 88 (weapon #215) should be replaced with D81T 86 (#102).

Although they were mentioned that if the things go international then there will be better ammunition available but possibilities didn't get more specific than that.
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  #6  
Old September 10th, 2014, 07:30 AM

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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

Pssst! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50222 in case you haven't read it.
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  #7  
Old September 29th, 2014, 09:09 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

This technicality is already covered in the Mobhack help.

Relevant section is underlined.

Quote:
Class 21 - Multi Charge ATGM - Modern missile with 2 or more sub charges designed to strip away ERA, or a 'dibber' or similar device. Performs better against ERA protected units than class 13.
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  #8  
Old February 7th, 2015, 06:45 AM

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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

Thumbs up for the modifications. Have you considired switchign TOW-2 and Spike ER to a Heavy ATGM class like in many other nations (Canada, Spain, Turkey etc.)? Now all the Finnish ATGM's from NLAW to TOW are lumped together. To switch could benefit the AI too.

And if you need any pics from Finnish equipment, I have gathered quite a collection over the years. A small sample:

http://i.imgur.com/GyXLIFk.png
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  #9  
Old February 8th, 2015, 06:24 AM

dmnt dmnt is offline
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Default Re: Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

I'm actually extending the use of classes in Finnish OOB. One reason is that the game doesn't quite support the Finnish use of ATGMs: For example, BMP-1 PzJaegers kept that AT-3/AT-4 missile on top of the BMP-1 while moving and detached it for fighting. Now in the game if ATGM is in the vehicle it can't shoot and when troops exit the vehicle they can't get the vehicle ATGM out.

In my opinion Finnish troops benefit more when the vehicle ATGM is part of the unit being transported. I'm adding a PzJaeger Co/B where platoons have non-ATGM BMP-1 as a transport and two units for each BMP-1, an ATGM team and PzJaeger Squad with reduced number of men.
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