Cross country speeds

[Imp]

Cross country speeds are never going to be accurate they are based on the unit class with no modifications for specific units.
Book cross country speeds are also suspect, some may be wrong, Cromwell 16 hexes really.
Its probably much like armour penetration what do the testers class as open ground.
Playing field, steep hill, hard or soft going, fields or rough maybe a small obstacle to climb.
A Tiger drivuing over a rough fields etc wouuld be closer to 3 than 6 hexes.

From Chris my serious offroad budy weight matters makes getting the rest right harder if to heavy. Ground pressure is far more important. Horsepower is not very important torgue is especially if the vehicles heavy.
The most important thing though is probably the drive train & suspension & this is the where you get the big variations.
A Land Rover can still outperform many vehicles once the going gets tough despite being underpowered.
He runs a heavily modified Nissan something wide tyres specialised drivetrain & shocks, motor tuned down to about 320hp from over 500 to produce serious flat torque curve because thats what you need offroad

In game this would just be represented as any 4x4 at the level of this game you cannot take into account the individual aspects of the vehicle like how good the suspension is off road.

[Kiwikkiwik]

Thanks Scorpio.
In the British OOB
Inconsistencies are these.
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Morris LRC (Mk I?)
Humber Utility
LRDG Chevy ATG
LRDG Chevy AA
LRDG Chevy ATR
LRDG Scorpion
Lanchester AC
25mm Portee
2 Pdr Portee
3.7in Portee
I think also 3xMotorcycles

In the German OOB
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in ATWheeled, they only appear in Wheeled. They should appear in class 2 and 3 (I know the OOB is full)
Opel
Buessing-NAG
Munitions LKW
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Kubelwagen VB
Schwimmwagen VB
Schwimmwagen
Kubelwagen
I think also Kraftrad, 3xBeiwagenKrad, Kraftradmelder

These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 6x4 not ATwheeled, 6x6.
Armoured Truck
Kfz 69 Protze
PzSPw. L202(h)
SdKfz 232 (6) B
SdKfz 231 (6)

I didnt provide this details originally as I dont know how the different classes are chosen and what they mean, but I have a better idea now I will do the other OObs if someone can confirm that 4x2 and 6x4 should be in class 2?

The Sdkfz 222 (also kubelwagen 4x2) and 231 are both in class 3, but the all wheel drive, all wheel steer 231 would have a much better cross country performance than 222 and kubelwagen. The Sdkfz 250 and 251 are in class 4 but especially the 250 had problems with too much weight on the front axles. They are not as good as fully tracked vehicles. I think sdkfz 231, terrapin, half tracks, the giant wheeled italian cars TL/AS etc and some others would be better put in a class between 3 and 4 in capabilities, if possible .

As for tracked vehicles cross country speeds I have used the speed in clear non-road for all the vehicles because othewise you cannot compare them. It looks to me that tracked vehicles get half their max speed in clear crosscountry. So I cannot see where my values are incorrect?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Thanks Scorpio.
In the British OOB
Inconsistencies are these.
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Morris LRC (Mk I?)

Morris LRC MK 2 was 4x4 so it's AT wheel and it's not going to change and neither is the way the game calculates movement points , it is, like many things in the game, a generalized abstraction suitable to the scale of the game but cannot recreate text book results for every vehicle ever made......."close enough" is "good enough

Don

[Kiwikkiwik]

PART 2

Nationalist China
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
Medium Truck (Zis 5?, Ford truck?) (14,135,138)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Heavy Truck (Buessing-NAG) (15)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
BA_10
BA-6
Armrd Truck /Gn (Kfz 70 Protze)
Armrd Truck /MG? (Kfz 70 Protze) (266)
K 69 Utility (Kfz 70 Protze) (38,41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
light truck (15 cwt GS Bedford?) (801)
BA-20 (273)
Lancia IZM (267)
I think Motorcycle (255) Motorcycle MG (256)

Yugoslavia
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Stuart SPG (23)
BT-7 (140)
Somua S-35 (280)
H-39 (281)
PzKw I (303)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Opel (13)

These vehicles are 6x4 or 6x6. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
Heavy Truck (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker) start date is 1/44 should it be 10/44 when soviets liberated belgrade?
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Armoured Truck (Fiat 626?) (457)
I think Motorcycle MG (262)
AEC Mk II (100) is light tank class (12) should be Heavy AC class (108)?

Bulgaria
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
SdKfz 222 (47)
SdKfz 223 (Fu) (53)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T Wheel
MB L4500 (42)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 Ton Truck (USA GMC or studebaker)
These vehicles can be 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and can be class 3 A/T Wheel
OpelBlitz (60)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Steyr 640
Praga AV
Krupp Protze (48)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Ford Lt Truck
Citroen T23
Kubelwagen (52)
Kubelwagen OP (54)
Skoda (55)
I think Motorcycle squad (66,67,70,71,101,102)

India
These vehicles are 6x6 they are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
DUKW (57)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Buffalo IV (58)
Wasp (128)
Arm'd Bulldozer (380)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T Wheel.
Bedford (Bedford QL) (55)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 Wheel.
Morris 15cwt (129) picture is 15 cwt GS Bedford
Humber Utility (265)
2 Pdr Portee (430)

Germany
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
PzKw I B (1)
Minenraum IV H (135)
These vehicles come in 4x2 and 4x4 but there are none in class 3 ATWheeled, they only appear in class 2 Wheeled. They can appear in class 2 and 3 (I know the OOB is full)
Opel (80)
Buessing-NAG (81)
Munitions LKW (Buessing-NAG) (230)
These vehicles are 4x2 They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheeled.
Kubelwagen VB (173)
Schwimmwagen VB (174)
Schwimmwagen (183)
Kubelwagen (195)
I think also Kraftrad (109,511,512,805,806,896), 3xBeiwagenKrad (949), Kraftradmelder (981)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel
PsW 203(r)
Steyr ADGZ
Armoured Truck (983)
Kfz 69 Protze (453)
Kfz 70 Protze (155)
PzSPw. L202(h) (541)
SdKfz 232 (6) B (176)
SdKfz 231 (6) (70,392,833) (833 is a light armoured car class, should be heavy armoured car class?)

Australia/New Zealand
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 track
Mk IIa (1)
50cal Halftrack (53)
Buffalo IV (58)
Wasp (128)
Arm'd Bulldozer (177)
These vehicles are 6x6 They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
DUKW (57)
These vehicles are 4x4 They are class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (Austin K5) (55)
Ford Dingo (115,149)
This vehicle is 6x6. It is class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Ammo lorry (229) (Mack NO) (Start date of 30 should be 43) Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Morris 15cwt (125,129,152)
2 Pdr Portee (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (206,231)
47mm Portee (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (207)

Chinese communists
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel
Medium Truck (135)
These vehicles are 4x2 or 4x4. They are class 2 Wheel and can also be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (15) (Buessing Nag)
These vehicles are 4x2 they are class 3 Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Light Truck (12) (Ford, ZIS 5?)
light truck (744) (15 cwt GS Bedford)
I think Motorcycle MotorcycleMG (255,256)
Lancia IZM (267)
BA-20 (273)
These vehicles are 6x4 They are class 3 Wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
BA-6 (275)
BA-10 (274)
K 69 Utility (Kfz 70 Protze) (38,41)
K 69 AOP (64)
Armrd Truck /Gn (Kfz 70 Protze) (266)
Armrd Truck /MG? (Kfz 70 Protze) (272)

USMC
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
LVT(A) 1 (423,021)
LVT 2 (301,16)
LVT 2(A) (288,017)
LVT(A) 4 (022)
LVT 4 (19)
LVT 1 (111,300)
LVT 1(AC) (299)
LVT 3 (113)
LVT(A) 4b (114)
LVT 4 Flame (206)
LVT(A) 5 (207)
LVT(A) 4 Flame (210)
Arm'd Bulldozer (231)
M1917A1 263
LVT 1 FO (378)
LVT(A) 2 FO (382,379)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 w/AAMG (374) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
1&1/2 Ton Truck (37) (Studebaker)
1&1/2 Ton Truck (372) (Chevrolet)

USA
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
M4 Flail (14)
M8 HMC (19)
T28E1 MGMC (24)
M16 MGMC (25)
M19 Duster (26)
LVT 4 (29)
T1E3 MineRoller (52)
M15 MGMC (64)
M15A1 MGMC (65)
60mm Mor H/T (67)
M1917 (107)
M1917A1 (108)
M4 AOP (142)
M3A3 (242)
M3A5 (243)
M3A5 CS (256)
LVT(A) 1 (318)
M-H T16 (340)
Arm'd Bulldozer (379)
LVT 1 (AC) (552,553)
LVT 2 (554)
LVT(A) 2 (555)
LVT(A) 4 (720)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T Wheel
2&1/2 w/AAMG (170) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
2&1/2 Ton Truck (38) (Start date is 1930 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
M8 Greyhound (28)
DUKW (31)
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel
1/2 Ton Truck (370) (kc-1)
Truck AOP (374) (kc-1?)
Chevy Car (371)
These vehicles are 6x6 or 6x4. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
Heavy Truck (399,221) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker or maybe REO 2&1/2 ton prototype) (Start date is 1930/35 should be mid 41)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
1&1/2 Ton Truck (37) (Studebaker)
1&1/2 Ton Truck (372) (Chevrolet)
I think motorcycle (223), motorcycle squad (222)

Soviet Union
Studebaker 6x4 (5 ton) and 6x6 (2&1/2 ton) trucks look identicle. Probably same for GMC also.
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
T-40 (6,368)
T-44/100 (127)
MS-1/T-18 (170,171)
T-18m (177)
T-50 (182,519)
T-80 (293,527)
T-44 (294)
LT Mk VII (309)
T-40S (369,328)
T-38 (334)
T-30 (335)
T-50E (516)
T-50-57 (731)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel
DUKW (93)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
AOP Light Truck (134) (Dodge wc63) Start date for this vehicle is 1/30 should be mid 41 (Change picture to Gaz or Zis 4x2 and leave in class 2?)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 Wheeled and should be class 3 A/T wheel
BA-27 (364)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel
BA-10 (41)
BA-3 (310)
BA-6 (311)
SU-1-12 (623, 643) (on gaz or zis truck)
These vehicles are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel I think
Motorcycles (305,306) 3xMotorcycles (754,755)

Vichy France
These vehicles are 4x2. they are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
AMD 80 (197)
Laffly 80 AM (408)
Laffly 50 AM (391)
Citroen (67)
Panhard 165/175 (393)
I think Sec Motocyclist (39,161,178,187,365,366,367,368,369,450,451)
These vehicles are 6x6. they are class 2 and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Camion Munition (230) (REO M35) start date is 44 should be 49. (Change to Laffly S35T? 6x6 or Buessing Nag 4x4?)
Light Truck (251) (Dodge WC63) (Change to Laffly S20T? 6x6)
Veh Observation (66) (Dodge WC63) (Change to Laffly S20T? 6x6)

France
These are class 0 default should be class 4 track
M3 75mm GMC (132)
M4 81mm MMC (133)
60mm Mor H/T (134)
Buffalo IV (166)
M15A1 AAMC (293)
M12 155mm GMC (297)
Obusier M8 HMC (298)
Lloyd Carrier (341)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Citroen (67) (U23?)
Conus Gun (413) (Morris 15 cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
These vehicles are 4x4. they are class 2 and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
3-Ton Lorry (350) (Austin K5)

Japan
These vehicles are 6x4. they are class 0 default should be class 2 wheeled.
Chiyoda A/C (23)
Type 91 So-Mo (298)
Type 92 SNLF (22)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Toyota Su-Ki (109)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Overvalwagen (335) (there is a possibility a few may have been 4x4)
Nissan 180 (25) (Introduced 1941 not 1930)
I think also Motorcycles (93,440) and Sanrinsha (439)

Italian social republic
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Alfa Romeo 2500 (411, 648)
Fiat 508C OA (401)
Lancia 3Ro APC (67)
I think also Motoguzzi (281) Motoguzzi(MG) (282), Guzzi Trasporto (515)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Semovente CA 20 (11) (Fiat Dovunque 33)
Dovunque35 Prot (361) (Fiat Dovunque 33)

Manchukuo
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
Nissan 180 (25)
I think also Motorcycles (93,440)

Slovac Republic
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel
Tatra 57 AOP (143)
I think Motorcycles (305)
These vehicles are 6x4. They are class 3 A/T wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
OA vz 30 (51)
Praga AV (139)
Tatra Truck AOP (142)

LWP
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and are should be class 2 wheel.
I think motorcycles (112)
This vehicle is 6x6 or 6x4. It is class 0 default and can be class 2 wheel or class 3 A/T wheel.
Studebaker (180) (Picture is USA GMC or studebaker)

Poland
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 0 default and should be class 2 wheel.
15cwt Lt Truck (373) picture is 15 cwt GS Bedford
30cwt GS Truck (374)
Berliet CBA (829)
Chevrolet 157 (376)
Rolls-Royce A/C (479)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 0 default should be class 3 A/T Wheel
3 Ton GS Truck (382)
Staghound AA (184)
Humber Mk.II (478)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 0 default should be class 3 A/T Wheel
6 Ton GS Truck (383) (Mack NO) (Start date of 40 should be 43 or maybe replace with Praga RV already in OOB)
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked
75mm SP Autocar (166)
Renault FT-17 (887)
Renault FT (456)
Renault FT 37mm (457)
Arm'd Bulldozer (489)
Halftrack SPM (136)
Hotchkiss H-39 (477)
wasp (33)
buffalo IV (114)
Light Truck AOP (123), picture is dodge wc63 (6x6). Start date is 30 should be 43. Or replace with Laffly V15T (4x4) already in OOB.
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 A/T Wheel and should be class 2 wheel.
15cwt GS Truck (381) (15 cwt GS Bedford)
30cwt GS Truck (374) Picture is kc-1 should it be Austin K30?
Wz.34 (570)
Wz.34 II (572)
Wz.34 (37mm) (575)
Wz.34 II (37mm) (577)
Humber Utility (363)
Polski Fiat 508 (368)
I think also Motorcycle (270)
This vehicle is 4x4. It is class 2 wheel and should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ehrhardt M.17 (684) (however suspension, wheelbase, wheelsize etc probably sets it into class 2)

Great Britian
These vehicles are class 0 default and should be class 4 tracked.
Avenger
Black Prince (190)
Churchill III (664,153)
Churchill Na75 (227,228)
Churchill VI (229)
M22 Locust (297)
Churchill II CS (171)
M3 SP 75mm (188,199,200)
Mk VIb (298)
Churchill Ics2 (663)
DUKW (57)
Buffalo IV (58,306,)
Wasp (128,560)
Arm'd Bulldozer (299)
Priest Kangaroo (406)
Buffalo II (710)
These vehicles are 4x2. They are class 3 and should be class 2 wheel.
Morris LRC (Mk I) (558) (MkII is 4x4!)
Humber Utility (285)
LRDG Chevy ATG (252)
LRDG Chevy AA (241)
LRDG Chevy ATR (242)
LRDG Scorpion (706)
Lanchester AC (130)
25mm Portee (216) (Morris 15cwt(21) or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
2 Pdr Portee (217) (Morris 15cwt(21) or 15 cwt GS Bedford)
3.7in Portee! (592) (Morris 15cwt or 15 cwt GS Bedford) (37mm?) (292) picture looks like 37mm.
I think also 3xMotorcycles (690)
These vehicles are 4x4. They are class 2 but should be class 3 A/T wheel.
C9/B 40mm SPAA (387) (On Morris C8)
Medium lorry (Austin K5) (54)
Bedford (Bedford QL) (294)
These vehicles are 6x6. They are class 2 but should be class 3 A/T wheel.
Ammo lorry (230) (Mack NO) (Start date of 30 should be 43) Replace with AEC Marshal 3 ton 6x4 1936-40 or Scammel r100 6x4 1937-1946 18 mph max speed, Austin K3 3 ton 1939 6x4

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Thanks Scorpio.
In the British OOB
Inconsistencies are these.
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Morris LRC (Mk I?)
Humber Utility

The Humber ‘Box’ Heavy Utility was well known and widely used as the only British 4x4 utility vehicle; it was a forerunner of the modern SUV.

This vehicle had a road speed of 101Kmh. It had the same powerful engine as the Snipe.

Here's some info:

The most important Humber apart from the Snipe was the 4x4 heavy utility. This was a remarkable vehicle, being the only four-wheel-drive machine of its size made in Britain at the time. It was intended for the same type of work as the Ford WOT2 being able to transport staff officers at high speed (maximum 63 mph) over good roads and at the same time to keep going were roads non-existent, on sand or deep mud.

Page 12, G.N. Georgano, World War Two Military Vehicles Transport and Halftracks, Osprey Automotive 1994


Cross

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Cross

The Humber ‘Box’ Heavy Utility was well known and widely used as the only British 4x4 utility vehicle; it was a forerunner of the modern SUV.

This vehicle had a road speed of 101Kmh. It had the same powerful engine as the Snipe.

Here's some info:

The most important Humber apart from the Snipe was the 4x4 heavy utility. This was a remarkable vehicle, being the only four-wheel-drive machine of its size made in Britain at the time. It was intended for the same type of work as the Ford WOT2 being able to transport staff officers at high speed (maximum 63 mph) over good roads and at the same time to keep going were roads non-existent, on sand or deep mud.

Page 12, G.N. Georgano, World War Two Military Vehicles Transport and Halftracks, Osprey Automotive 1994


Cross

Here's some images of the Humber Utility:


Humber Box (4WD, 101Kmh, prod: 6,500)


Humber Box (desert)


It came in soft-top and hard-top versions:



Cross

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Thanks Scorpio.
In the British OOB
Inconsistencies are these.
These vehicles are class 3 and should be class 2 as they are 4x2 not ATwheeled, 4x4.
Morris LRC (Mk I?)
Humber Utility
LRDG Chevy ATG
LRDG Chevy AA
LRDG Chevy ATR
LRDG Scorpion
Lanchester AC
25mm Portee
2 Pdr Portee
3.7in Portee
I think also 3xMotorcycles

I thought the LRDG vehicles had been given 4WD status because they were adapted and stripped down for cross-country desert operations. They all had sand ramps as standard equipment. I recall reading that they had better desert cross-country ability than many 4WD vehicles, but I'd have to search for that reference.

I believe the Kubelwagen and a few other vehicles - like Motorcycles - were also given 4WD status because of their cross-country reputation.


Cross

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Cross

I thought the LRDG vehicles had been given 4WD status because they were adapted and stripped down for cross-country desert operations. They all had sand ramps as standard equipment. I recall reading that they had better desert cross-country ability than many 4WD vehicles, but I'd have to search for that reference.

I believe the Kubelwagen and a few other vehicles - like Motorcycles - were also given 4WD status because of their cross-country reputation.


Cross

You are correct.

Don

[IronDuke99]

Originally Posted by DRG

You are correct.

Don

There is the famous case of the LRDG sand chanelling up a main road in Cairo for a joke...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yxnyvcfiho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwR1m9X5XU

[DRG]

A 6x4 would be AT wheeled ( class 3 ) and there is no.......and will not be "a class between 3 and 4 in capabilities" added