MP game: Nations at War. Started!

[Jurri]

Ah, the one dude that could fly in the storm had an attack of 21? or something. The others were grounded, and thus they were stopped by elementals which can take quite a few hits, as they just dwindle when killed. Leaving ample time for my other troops/wrathful to rout your troops, and thus your thugs. A 30+ attack won't help if the dude can't get close enough to hit, hence the comment that the AQ was very unlikely to be hit in the battle.

Sure you had pretty heavily armed guys there, but the army wasn't all that well prepared for anything else than facing armies/SCs in a non-storm environment. The battle wasn't that spectacular, but I don't think it was lame. In my opinion it went pretty much the way it should have according to my understanding of the mechanics of the game. When an enemy shows a glaring weakness it is to be exploited!

I don't think a few unrouting troops would have done much, as my army was quite able to stall the battle for quite a while, allowing WS to do it's trick. Against mechanos there's little that is better than a big bunch of air elementals (the robots being small and having few hitpoints and non-magical weapons - easy to trample and hardly ever hit). Besides, I wouldn't necessarily have went that route if you had a more versatile army, of course.

So, I don't think that you should be quite as annoyed as you come over as. That was an army I would have a hard time dealing with any other way, a pretty sight indeed! This time my planning just was superior, nothing more to it. I rather expected you to have prepared a retreat route for your dudes, though, so that part was just a plus.

[CUnknown]

This is why people get annoyed with this game sometimes. If I had just sent the Bane Lords in by themselves, or had some unroutable troops--your elementalals really wouldn't have lasted long--I would have won. Hell, even just that one Bane Lord with the barrier shield, he could have won by himself.

Anyway, that battle surely didn't go "as it should have gone". And because of that, it was lame.

"Sure you had pretty heavily armed guys there, but the army wasn't all that well prepared for anything else than facing armies/SCs in a non-storm environment."

The storm really didn't do much to me at all...it was the damn false horror who made me rout. I don't think wrathful skies really did much of anything either, it only hit me for what, like 1 round? before I fled. I suppose it caused a morale check, but I bet it was the false horror who made me fail the check. In any case, the Storm was sort of a non-issue. The second any of your elementals would have stepped up to my army, they would have been destroyed in no time.

As far as planning an escape route--it really never crossed my mind that that army was beatable by anything you had in the area. I was pretty confident I was going straight for your capital and taking it. Stupid f*cking Air Queen! You have to admit that's lame, man..

Anyway, it's just as well I didn't plan for an escape, because if that army gets beaten, the game's pretty much over, right? It probably took me 15 turns to build that group. And it was never actually -defeated-, it just ran for no f*cking reason.

Blah!!!

[Jurri]

Umm, I don't think there were any false horrors there, but I overwrote the file already. There was the horror presumably summoned by the Gift of Kurgi but nothing besides. What version is the host?

Bane Lords by themselves would have routed just as soon as one would have died; which wouldn't have taken long considering you had only 1? lightning protected Lord. Unroutable troops would have died to lightning. Mechanos would have been trampled by air elementals (if you had had them I would likely have sent another AQ just to summon them via Living Clouds). The Barrier guy alone, well, I can't say. It would have taken him at least 3 dozen turns to carve every one of my guys, though, maybe more. Especially if the AQ defaulted to false horror or some such.

What I mean by how it should have gone is, there was no freakish outlier in the random rolls - at least not one I could see.

The Storm prevented your fliers from flying, which allowed the main damage to be soaked by elementals from Living Clouds, instead of the real ones. And of course doubled the hits your army took from WS. And prevented your dudes from rushing the AQ...

As far as planning an escape route--it really never crossed my mind that that army was beatable by anything you had in the area.

Classic Sun Tzu! ...just kidding, don't get any angrier! But seriously, though, I intentionally didn't use said army against Pan for a good length of time to have it in place for your attack, and to prevent you from knowing I had one. Guess it worked, seeing how you hadn't lightning-proofed your army

This has been an awesome game so far, and I really wish this battle didn't sour it for you... If your server saves the turn files we could analyze it in-depth after the game, perhaps? I'd like to convince you of the, for lack of better word, validity of the tactics used, as I really thought I was rather clever in hiding my AQs to prolong your non-involvement and in the use of a specific army tailored to take down your conventional troop -based army. And, well, it's pretty depressing to hear the tactic I planned thoroughly and executed pretty nicely was lame

[jeffr]

Unfortunately, I missed this. What province did this battle take place in?

[CUnknown]

"But seriously, though, I intentionally didn't use said army against Pan for a good length of time to have it in place for your attack, and to prevent you from knowing I had one. Guess it worked, seeing how you hadn't lightning-proofed your army "

Yes, that was definitely an awesome move on your part. I really had no idea you had an air queen. I was thinking I was going to be fighting Tartarians and/or your god (and was ready to stomp them).


"What I mean by how it should have gone is, there was no freakish outlier in the random rolls - at least not one I could see."

Well, I agree with that, except maybe I routed a little early. But, early or late they would have, sure. Because I had no mech. men in there.


"The Barrier guy alone, well, I can't say. It would have taken him at least 3 dozen turns to carve every one of my guys, though, maybe more"

You know there is something seriously wrong with this game when it's better to go in alone than bring an army along.
Okay, now I'm just venting. But, really... I hope they do something about that for Dom III.

If, as you say, there was no way I was going to win that battle, how does one -ever- beat an AQ in that sort of set-up? You said it was my army's lack of versatility, but come on.. Without an AQ of my own or Storm Demons, nothing's able to fly in that storm, am I right? I'd have needed to completely lightning-proof my army.

Barring having an AQ, Storm Demons, or complete lightning-proofing (none of which are likely to have happened), how would you suggest defeating that sort of set-up in the future? I'd try the mechanical men route, but you seem to think that wouldn't work. It doesn't seem like there's much else out there that would have stood up to what you had in that case.


"And, well, it's pretty depressing to hear the tactic I planned thoroughly and executed pretty nicely was lame"

I don't want you to misunderstand me, the planning and execution were excellent, it's just I can't believe that the game would allow 1 SC and a few elementals to take down and much larger and better-equipped force, including roughly 10 SCs. And it was even lamer when the larger and superior force -didn't even fight- but decided to run for no reason. Sure they lost a few guys, but nothing major. These are trained soliders, dammit! Stand and f*cking fight you freaks! I say it's lame just because it's illogical. The better force should have won that fight. But I guess that's the way it goes sometimes.

[CUnknown]

Wait, I know what I should have had--spam undead summoners? Do you think that might have helped, Jurri? I could have had a few of those in there. Sigh.

[Jurri]

CUnknown said:
If, as you say, there was no way I was going to win that battle, how does one -ever- beat an AQ in that sort of set-up? You said it was my army's lack of versatility, but come on.. Without an AQ of my own or Storm Demons, nothing's able to fly in that storm, am I right? I'd have needed to completely lightning-proof my army.

Barring having an AQ, Storm Demons, or complete lightning-proofing (none of which are likely to have happened), how would you suggest defeating that sort of set-up in the future? I'd try the mechanical men route, but you seem to think that wouldn't work. It doesn't seem like there's much else out there that would have stood up to what you had in that case.

Apparently a dude casting paralyze is just perfect for the part, right Jeffr?

One option is to have just that one properly equipped guy whittling down the army. Charcoal shield should do well enough. Another is to have mechanos, like you say - in large enough amounts. You gotta prepare for heavy losses, though, (as they are really vulnerable to trampling,) and have some guys that can do the actual killing. The same goes for the undead spam, and skeletons die mighty fine with WS, too. Any lightning immune troop with high enough defense or size 4 or more, would do as well, I surmise. Siege golems, Iron Dragons... I wonder how angels would do; they wouldn't have the staying power the above mentioned have but they have magical weapons, high attack, and 50% shock res.

The most cost-effective way could be the SC. Mages casting area cold spells should do well, too, when backed by troops that tie up the elementals. Also, targetting the AQ is an option: a bunch of guys casting paralyze/soul slay could prevent her from casting WS and Living Clouds, with some luck.

But what do I know, really... A forum search would yield hints from better players than I, I'm sure. Hasn't WS been the topic for discussion for quite some time already?

I say it's lame just because it's illogical. The better force should have won that fight. But I guess that's the way it goes sometimes.

I actually rather like the lateral levels in the strategy... That is to say, it's cool that there is more than one way to skin a cat. It would be boring if the same answers would hold all the time. If you always had to face the enemy's rock with a rock of your own, how would that be fun?

[Boron]

Though i didn't see that battle (cause i died on turn 3 ) i would say that iron dragons would have been excellent probably .

1 iron dragon and lots of scs would have been enough likely .
If the iron dragon is placed rearmost and with hold orders he shouldn't die . Hence no routing .

Then one or 2 petrify spammers and a few thugs with moonblades or similiar .

AQs are imho far from invincible .
2-3 ghost riders beat a single AQ unless it has very special gear like robe of invulnerability + charcoil shield .
Then the AQ has no quickness though . Another weakness of the AQ is their rather low strength without a storm .
A single AQ can't cast storm though because it would fatigue her .
A dual AQ , one as SC , one as staff of storm bearer + wrather is far from invincible also . Especially the staff of storm bearing AQ is very vulnerable .
Petrify , blindness or paralyze work wonders .

[CUnknown]

"I actually rather like the lateral levels in the strategy... That is to say, it's cool that there is more than one way to skin a cat. It would be boring if the same answers would hold all the time. If you always had to face the enemy's rock with a rock of your own, how would that be fun?"

I was really pissed off, Jurri, don't listen to me.

I was just venting man. Seeing that other army of mine survive 7 (?) ghost riders without barely a scratch has made me feel a lot better. See, that is what my armies are good at: guys with weapons coming at me! These tricky Air Queens casting all those fancy spells are just too much for my poor Ulmish brain to handle.

[jeffr]

New turn is up. I got lucky with the paralyze, but I'll take it.

Of course, the whole "lose your entire army to a single unit" thing that followed really sucks, but that's what this game is about after the initial phases(whether I like it or not).

Many people like that aspect of the game (almost an RPG type element in equiping your characters/SCs)so I guess if I want a shot a winning I better make some concessions in that area and build a few of my own. I've tried to win without them, but have always lost badly in the end.

Maybe one thing that will happen in Dom3 is to have nation specific summoned units instead of everyone using the same units(Tartarians, Bane Lords, Ice Devils, Air Queen, etc.) Why should Pangaea be playing with Undead? Doesn't feel right.