Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Another possibility for Shshs fix would be to give them Encumbrance 1-2

Shishi's do currently have an encumbrance of 1. (unless my version of the mod got corrupted during download)


Edit: Ninjad by the NooBliss

[llamabeast]

Sorry, can only post briefly, since at work. But a correction: Shishis have not changed since the original version, except for gaining +1 to attack (as in the first post). Version 1.01 did show that Shishis had gained magic attacks, since I thought I had missed out the magicness in the original version, but in fact I hadn't and so no change was made.

Also, as Calahan says, they have enc 1.

Zeldor's argument is hard to follow (although I was hoping he was right), since as NooBliss points out Shishis are immune to Fear, Awe and Ethereality, and cancel Mistform in one hit (and always did). Mirror image and luck are of course effective against them.

It remains the case that Shishis can very easily be killed, by e.g. the many methods that Squirreloid pointed out. However, those methods apply to most thugs; I think a little more thought is needed to work out whether the Shishis are out of line. I didn't intend to create an overpowered monster, no.

One tempting option is to remove the A2 and give them #onebattlespell Mistform. This will actually slightly improve them in battle (no fatigue from casting Mistform) but will remove the Cloud Trapeze option. I am not particularly wedded to the idea of them being able to Cloud Trapeze, although it is quite thematic.

[Zeldor]

Don't remove cloud trapeze, it's the whole point of Shishis - to be able to counter enemy thugs. Even if they are not reliable at that.

In Lunar Sea male shishi is bugges, so only one attack, so almost useless in counter-raiding.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

I did intend to create an overpowered monster, no.

The English language is great on times, such as when two words written in the wrong order can completely reverse the meaning of a sentence


@ llama - I'd personally go for either removing the magic paths on the Shishi as you say (flying or auto Mistform are both fine as well. Flying would be my preference I think, though unthematic maybe? re: "runs like the wind"). Or keep the A2 and nerf them slightly. Don't think the latter will take much personally, as just dropping the quickness (for example) would do the job.

Also, doubt Mirror Image would last long as a defence against Shishi's, as with six attacks per round one is bound to hit home in the first few rounds of battle. And their effective attack of 20 ensures a high defence won't help much in keeping the mirror image up either.

This quickness is a large part of the problem for me, as 6 magic attacks at a value of 20 per round is just too much in my books (which will become 21 after the 1st fight). Strength+Damage is 20 as well (23 with Girdle), which is not the biggest total ever, but with so many hits being scored quite a few will count when factoring in the DRN. Plus x2 against evil things makes it 40 (46 with Girdle), giving easy potential damage of well over 100 per round, and that's probably without needing good rolls or poor protection. That's not just a counter to demons, that an outright massacre with that damage output. All for just 15 Air gems!

If dropping the quickness is too unthematic, then maybe drop the attack value a lot (at least 6+). As then you might be forced to kit Shishi's out especially to fight Thugs/SC's with attack boosting items, rather than being able to give them the same equally as effective Girdle+AMA for every single situation they find themselves in. Giving players some actual strategic decisions to make about equipping commanders is always a good thing IMO.


@ Zeldor - Sounds like you've been MP testing some random form of Shishi that got neutered at the vets

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Calahan

If dropping the quickness is too unthematic, then maybe drop the attack value a lot (at least 6+).

I agree. Another option, if you want to keep the quickness, would be to combine a drop in attack value with only giving them one claw attack for a total of 4 attacks/round.

Originally Posted by Calahan

As then you might be forced to kit Shishi's out especially to fight Thugs/SC's with attack boosting items, rather than being able to give them the same equally as effective Girdle+AMA for every single situation they find themselves in. Giving players some actual strategic decisions to make about equipping commanders is always a good thing IMO.

Definitely. Generally speaking, I think units that have high HP/strength should not have great attack/defense scores and vice versa. It's strange to be defending tarts but it's worth noting that they and most of the elemental royalty don't have high attack scores. So I was happy to see the drop in attack scores for Grendelkin and Ember Lords (though I think the Ember Lord needs a further decrease).

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I agree. Another option, if you want to keep the quickness, would be to combine a drop in attack value with only giving them one claw attack for a total of 4 attacks/round.

Especially as most normal monsters have just 1 claw attack regardless (tigers, lions, etc.). 2 claws are usually domain of things considered unusually quick or skilled (some higher demons mostly iirc). So these 2 claws should replace quickness, not be combined with it. Or - quickness & 1 claw attack as base...

[Zeldor]

Has anyone really used Shishis though? It's very situational summon. I don't think it's OP. It may be good, but only against undead and demon thugs, which are not so common really. Has anyone used Shishi against smth normal? Werewolf thugs? Ri's? Sidhe Lords? I'm really curious.

[Squirrelloid]

Siddhe Lords with mirror image should make shishis pretty sad. Hitting near 30 defense isn't too hard, and once you stack mirror image on that even 6 attacks isn't going to be a sure thing.

[Valerius]

Fair question. I'll run some tests later. My guess is that the glamour thugs' best bet is an eye shield (have the Shishi's flurry of attacks work against it) combined with bumping up protection as high as possible.

I actually think a Skratti will defeat the Shishi, maybe even easily. Skratti have the HP to weather some damage and can dish out a lot of it themselves.

[zzcat]

Anyone noticed rocs have 175% SR? It seems a bug because #coldres replace the base creature's CR as intended but #shockres stack with the base creature's SR. Another issue is rocs inherit #iceprot 1 from storm guard, so they are less effective in hot provinces.

IMO the new zmey is somewhat overpowered. With 18 att, 28 str and 7 attacks BEFORE quickened, it can kill almost anything w/o ethereal in 1 round(mistform and mirror image will be negated by fire breath). 3 forms make it (partly)immune to soul slay, GfH and other save or die spells. And don't like shishis, it's nether magicbeing nor undead/demon so can't be countered by special weapons, 260 hp in total and 22 prot make it extremely hard to kill. I prefer to bring it back to previous stat but increase its HP and make fire breath its primary weapon. In my test, 3 bites can clear a square most of the time so other weapons will not get used. Swaping the order of fire breath and bites will increase its effeciency vs armies dramatically.