Ukraine 2021(?)

[DRG]

While we are on the subject of mines I invite comments in regards to this POSSIBLE swap file addition to the games ( similar to the swastika flag swap file in SPww2

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Is so you better see where your mines are placed so your guys don't get killed by them? If so, looks great as those signs were posted in battlefields going back to WWI.

If otherwise a planning tool while working on a scenario or other, then I did that kind of thing I would use it so I would put a building or some such on top of the mine.

Regards,
Pat

[zovs66]

Dang! Those look freaking good!

[DRG]

They would be a minor "game changer" in that they are impossible to overlook by either side, unlike the old mine icons that could be missed on a cluttered map.

OTOH.... nothing at all is changed in the code so an undetected minefield remains Icon free until it is detected

I did try a red/black version and white/blue/black/red versions as well which are less eye-catching than the yellow




White skull on red OTOH works like the yellow on black in a K.I.S.S way



And there are alternates to that.... the word MINES added in white


and alternates to the alternates .. the word MINES added in Yellow


And alternatives to that .. the word MINES added in white with a yellow skull

[blazejos]

Looks great but looks like there is no any international standard sign for mines
for inspiration

Ukraine since 2014


German WW2 times
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/n04AA...SK4/s-l500.jpg

British army sign

[MarkSheppard]

From Twitter/Telegram -- how a typical "Wagner" assault is executed for Scenario designers:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...771175426.html

1/ The Wagner Group's 'human wave' attacks, which have left the area around Bakhmut and Soledar strewn with the bodies of dead Wagner fighters, have been described in detail by a Russian source. It explains the brutal calculations behind Wagner's seemingly suicidal tactics. ⬇

2/ The 'Russian Criminal' website, which is linked to the VChK-OGPU Telegram channel, reports what a source – likely within Wagner – has told it about the mercenary group's approach to using recruited convicts to attack Soledar, sustaining huge casualties along the way.

3/ "The most experienced and well-prepared group of stormtroopers comes first, with excellent equipment. It's comprised of eight men, each with a 'Bumblebee' [possibly meaning an RPO-A Shmel thermobaric rocket launcher, effective against fortified positions].

4/ "Whatever happens, the group must reach the firing line. "Whatever happens" is not a turn of phrase, but a task, the failure to complete which will end in execution [by Wagner], regardless of any [mitigating] factors.

5/ "Once fire contact has been made [with the enemy], the group digs into positions. Digging in is taught as meticulously as combat operations, so by military standards, digging in is almost instantaneous and very effective.

6/ "The area the group has reached is marked (a rag on a tree or something similar). Even if the group is demolished to zero, the next one already realises where the previous one has reached. The main task is to make contact, dig in and transfer positional data to the artillery.

7/ "Artillery can fire from an hour to several hours. And here is the first cause of conflict with the [Russian] army: if there are not enough shells, instead of a successful attack you get hopeless meat from the stormtroopers.

8/ "The first group is followed by the second, also eight men, but with much lighter equipment. Their task is to jump into the positions as soon as the artillery shells finish their work.

9/ "Sometimes there is an order not to wait for the shelling to end – the 'Musicians' are so disciplined that they will go anyway, because they stand a fighting chance of surviving.

10/ "Nowadays there are not enough shells and because of that the first groups hardly survive – the main blow is coming at them and even training does not solve all the problems there.

11/ "Even before, losses in the first group were inevitable, but now the survivability of groups as a whole has fallen to critical values. And to replace them with just anyone increases costs even more, and the influx of people has now collapsed.

12/ "Groups of 8 people go in waves - usually 4 waves are prepared for the attack. But there have been cases in Soledar where it took 14 waves to take one area. Of course there were survivors, but the casualties were a hundred or more. That's for one section.

13/ "Groups have drone operators to lead the whole group into position to clear the area. At the same time, the lightly wounded do not slouch and do not lie down – for that, they could shoot you in the legs and leave behind.

14/ "This tactic is the only possible way to achieve results and advance in such conditions. The line of defense in Soledar has been cleverly constructed for years, the army command has neither the possibility nor the desire to advance there.

15/ "That's basically why the task was handed to Wagner.

From the outside, it may look unreasonable to take such a high casualty rate deliberately, but try to look at it in a different way: even 4 waves of 8 men – that is 32 men killed at the worst.

16/ "Throw in even a regiment – they will lose much more and even they will fail to cope with the task. In percentage terms they will lose less, but in absolute numbers, more. Therefore losses of over 50% for an attack are not bad, if there is a result.

17/ "There is much less manpower for assault groups now, shells are also in short supply. And if the artillery is suppressed, then no one will call the stormtroopers back anyway, they just mop up without cover.

18/ "If there are more groups in reserve, you can send in 5, and 6, and 7 waves, just to finish the result. This is not an army, here it is better to have more initiative than to underdo it.

19/ "The 'Musicians' have their own training – with a crazy intensity, if you are without experience – but they teach a very narrow range of tasks.

20/ "And the newcomers from the penal colonies are very well disciplined: first they are shown video executions, then very soon they encounter their first real examples, and then they get used to such discipline completely.

21/ "Another plus from this [in contrast to the Russian army] is that it is not the practice in Wagner to reassign those [qualified as] artillery gunners to the stormtroopers, unless as punishment. Good gunners are also worth their weight in gold.

22/ "The army will not be able to replace Wagner in hot areas, this is not even considered. In modern warfare, the number of soldiers is not an indicator at all. But, again, the question remains open – what to do about the shortage of shells (120 and 80 mm)?

23/ "There is a concept of "efficiency relative to the situation", and so this efficiency can be high, but if the situation is deadlocked, then the main issue is still not resolved.

24/ "Exchanging people for territory is beneficial when the territory is small and people in reserve are plentiful. If, on the other hand, you have to chop for every metre and people have become scarce, problems begin to arise.

25/ "As a result, losses are growing and progress slows down. The recruitment of convicts at first gave a full-flowing river of people, now they are gone. At the beginning of the war there was talk of Syrian mercenaries, some even came. But they are not fit for this war.

26/ "Among the 'Musicians' they say aloud that "we're about to put the squeeze on and take everything here." But among themselves, everyone expects that we will be removed from the assault on a number of directions.

27/ "And even if a large mobilisation begins right tomorrow, it will not be possible to immediately recruit refuseniks in the required numbers, but they still need to be run in, brought to the desired condition, …

28/ "because otherwise it will not even be possible to spend them effectively. It takes time, it takes a lot of shells. And we have neither one nor the other."

Source:
https://rucriminal.info/ru/material/idushhie-na-smert

[DRG]

Originally Posted by blazejos

Looks great but looks like there is no any international standard sign for mines

That's what I found as well and a dozen or so variations from an African Nation that names escapes me ATM

Leaning towards these but I have weeks to make up my mind



Or Perhaps Roman Numerals

[MarkSheppard]

So from this, you could simulate a Wagner attack by:

1.) Having each "wave" of Wagner (2 units, each of 4 men to enable some maneuvering) appear on a timed reinforcement schedule, to prevent the RU player from "gamey" use of all the squads at once in mass.

2.) The units are appropriately low cost -- instead of a total cost of 34 for a typical 8 man Russian Rifle Section (Unit 831); you'd use the scenario editor to reduce total unit cost to something like 5.

[lukerduker123]

Apologies for causing a brief argument in chat! My sleep-deprived brain clearly forgot that the Ottawa convention deals with personnel mines, not anti-armor mines. Also, in reference to the claimed Wagner wave assaults, didn't folks spend literal decades trying to dispel the myth of the 'Great Russian Horde' that defeated Germany in WWII? At least back then they had a proper population advantage..

[DRG]

This is an example of how an idea progresses.

I tried a slightly different version based on the "Ukraine since 2014" sign Blazoes posted



Rather than use 1,2,3,4 which only ever represented a general idea of the quantity of mines in a hex, not their actual number this just includes a bar scale at the top to indicate density

The one issue I have with them is how much of the hex the triangular version occupied

So I tried a square version



I still felt it was too large and it was the word MINES that was making it that way so tried and even more minimalist version



and that lead to this which is even smaller



which lead back to a yellow alternative



.........and that lead back to an alternate yellow triangle which brings us back to size



Then we get to three versions of full minimalist



But with full minimalist the word MINES can be added back



and yet another..... it works for summer and winter which means it will work for desert too



AND FINALLY.............
A revised version on the right, of the first one with the first attempt on the left



it's a bit smaller than the sixth one....a couple of pixels makes a big difference sometimes at this scale

...and in red



Feedback welcome