Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN

[Archonsod]

Lord_Bob said:
I'd like to repeat that. 68 Flail troops and some smiths almost killed 22 White Tigers, 8 White Monkeys, and his prophet. In their dominion.

Not that surprising really, you outnumber them more than two to one. Given sufficient troop numbers you can take out anything thanks to the multiple attacks reduce defence rules.

Sadly, this is effective because my now large force of smiths is packing Magma Bolts for Tiger. Instead it gets Markata. So I rain flaming Magma death on Markata. Each casting can kill up to three Markata.

Cannon fodder has always been useful :

Anyway, from the battles, it is pretty clear that Flail troops buffed with Strenght of Giants and used intelligently can do a good job against Bandar.

I'd think flail troops buffed and used intelligently would do a good job against just about anyone.

You've already lost a battle thanks to the monkey PD, which somewhat disproves your theory of it being useless. The problem with your original premise is that it's based around the value of the troops as toe to toe combatants against another unit, which isn't always the purpose of a troop, nor a good use of the troop. Bandar's PD is pretty much infinitely renewable chaff. They're fairly useless if your relying on them to see off a determined assault, however if their only purpose is to distract your mages and archers long enough for some decent combat troops to engage, or for a mage to get off a particular spell, then they're pretty much perfect. Of course, it means you can't treat defence for Bandar the same as you would for Abyssia, but then I think you could say the same thing about any aspect for any nation. The trick to winning isn't picking the best troops, but using them in the best manner. Sometimes it's crushing your enemy, sometimes it's dying in droves.

I guess to be honest that's the only real flaw with Bandar's little monkeys - thematically, they don't seem like one of the nations which would be happy to sacrifice a few thousand of their own for the 'greater good', but there you go.

[lch]

That was a very good post, Archonsod, which I hope Lord_Bob doesn't ignore, and a good finish to this thread I think.

[Lord_Bob]

They had an W9E9 bless.

F9 gets the Fire Attack, which would make them worse, but the +4 to attack is meaningless. Flail troops have a defence of 5.

[Lord_Bob]

Not that surprising really, you outnumber them more than two to one. Given sufficient troop numbers you can take out anything thanks to the multiple attacks reduce defence rules.

White Tigers cost 100 gold, and White Monkeys cost 23 gold. Flail troops cost 10 gold and 26 resources. Why don't you do the math.
22 White Tigers, 8 White Monkeys. 68 Flail Troops and 4 Smiths

The Bless troops had a W9E9 bless. They were fighting in their dominion, with their prophet and only won because my troops didn't have their prophet and routed.(also the -1 from dominion really hurt).

Losses:
7 White Tigers, 8 White Monkeys. 68 Flail Troops and 3 Smiths

You've already lost a battle thanks to the monkey PD, which somewhat disproves your theory of it being useless. The problem with your original premise is that it's based around the value of the troops as toe to toe combatants against another unit, which isn't always the purpose of a troop, nor a good use of the troop. Bandar's PD is pretty much infinitely renewable chaff.

So PD is important now?

And no, it was only usefull ONCE. Now that I know it's there, I can pretty much route any army stationed in that province by having my smiths spam blade wind. There is 2 melee Markate per point, and from the number of Bandar Warriors I think he had at least 40-50 PD. That's 800 gold right there. More importantly, that means I can add 80-100 routed to the army route total with two blade winds. Next, I have to hope the smiths/flails kill enough guys to push the army below 50%. Which, since the total already has 80-100 routed, isn't that hard. Then the Archer Markata(Morale 7 +1 for dominion) must begin making morale rolls every turn. Once they route I will have 120-160+ soldiers routed just from dead markata. I am now closing in on 75% mandatory route.

That was a very good post, Archonsod, which I hope Lord_Bob doesn't ignore, and a good finish to this thread I think.

Since the first line of his post is "logic" which would result in any player using it losing in MP, that's pretty smart.

"My enemy is losing more, and my units only cost 10 times as much!"

[Sir_Dr_D]

Archonsod said:
I guess to be honest that's the only real flaw with Bandar's little monkeys - thematically, they don't seem like one of the nations which would be happy to sacrifice a few thousand of their own for the 'greater good', but there you go.

In the Bandar Log caste system, the markatas are considered nobodies.

[lch]

I give up.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Archonsod said:
I guess to be honest that's the only real flaw with Bandar's little monkeys - thematically, they don't seem like one of the nations which would be happy to sacrifice a few thousand of their own for the 'greater good', but there you go.

Well... not entirely. "intellect barely above that of simple beasts [...] despised by larger monkeys and apes."

Given that they evolved intelligence under the blessing of divine beings and their belief in transmigration, they'd likely form an opinion that either Markatas were spurned by the divine beings or that they are a white one or other ape that did something horrible enough that they were reborn into a lesser form.

[Lord_Bob]

Hey, T'ien Ch'i this turn attempted what should have been a highly successfull strike back against my empire.

You see, I pretty muched totally destroyed his army and sieged his capital last turn. But. 4 Archers, with Protection 9, and a single commander escaped into another province. T'ien Ch'i launched a devasting, massed attack on one of my province. I know what you guys are thinking. What could stop 4 unarmoured archers and a commander. Well, it turns out 11 Monkey PD can do it if your lucky. Now, the Melee Markata routed, and one of the Atavi groups failed it's mandatory roll and routed, but, within one round of my whole army routing the bowmen finally failed their morale roll. I won. Woo-hoo.

Another attack only failed because the Morale 14 Cave Drake inexplicably failed it's morale roll on round 2. Also, he targetted my archers, not my melee units. Oh, the Cave Drake was backed up by 6 archers, a commander, 2-3 crossbowmen, and a single pale one. That force should have won. PD 10. But if the Cave Drake hadn't wussed out it wouldn't have matterred how much PD I had. My own archers would have killed enough PD to rout my own army.
[Not inexplicable. I remember now that a Pale One was in the battle group with the cave drake. When the Pale One died the "group" was brought to 50% strength and suffered a severe morale penalty. Alone the Cave Drake would have won.]

But I could take these provinces back?

That's funny! You silly people make me laugh! For 55 gold he can put 10 Footman, 10 Archers, and 10 Light Calvary in the province!

As a result, my entire siege army is now diverted, lest the 4 Archers of Death strike again.

They are terrible to behold in their 4 archer glory, are they not?

You are wrong. I am right. That is why there is no discussion, only whining on your part.

[Shovah32]

Is Tien Chis PD considered strong? Yes.
Is the PD of the monkey nations considered among the worst in the game? Yes.
Do either of these facts make/break these nations? I think not.

Are you trolling now? I have a suspicion that you are.

The monkey nations CAN win as I have proven to you. Sure, their PD is a weakness but it can be compensated for. Every nation has pros and cons - One of Tien Chis pros is it's strong PD, one of the cons of the monkey nations is their weak PD.

It may change their multiplayer effectiveness but they CAN still win.

[Lord_Bob]

Oh I know exactly what I'm dealing with.