OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

[jimbob]

I think Tyco was Dutch. I remember reading a little blurb about "how does the other half die" which summarized the exit strategies of some of the greatest men of all time (Neo-Feminists: I mean men in exclusion of any feminine personages, it didn't discuss any women at all).

Sir Francis Bacon: froze to death when trying to determine if ice/snow would preserve meat

Genghis Kahn: died of a nosebleed when passed out drunk after his wedding

Tycho: died when his bladder broke because he was at a dinner party when he needed to go. Evidently the dinner parties were hours long, and it was excedingly rude to get up and leave the table. Personally I think that he should have just eaten a couple of double or triple salts to soak the water back out of the bladder

Anyway, I don't know if any of the above are true, it wasn't a peer reviewed article or anything. But it does show you, even the famous can go out in a less than "glorious" way.

[dogscoff]

the exit strategies of some of the greatest men of all time

Kind of an anti-Darwin award. That francis Bacon one sounds too outrageous, especially considering the irony of his name...

[jimbob]

The Church does not have a philosophical domain. It does not provide logical arguments for why it is right, it just says that what it says is right, period. So, there is no philosophy about it.

Well, besides the fact that the statement above is incredibly insulting, there are considerable volumes of religious philosophy, I dare say libraries full of philosophy that examines the meaning of life and our moral/ethical roles. Furthermore, not all philosophy is etiological in nature, philosophy is far broader than that! Finally, there are exceptionally logical arguments for the various religious belief systems, but if a person has already decided which world view is correct, they cannot accept the others as true. The most obviously a person who rejects the supernatural could never accept Hinduism, Shintoism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Shamanism. Though a very small minority of Buddists are atheist, being a "non-supernaturalist" and a Buddist simultaneously is conceivable.

My argument was that the Church held back advancement during the European Dark Ages, not during this period. I just could not think of any specific examples of people during the European Dark Ages that were persecuted for thinking for themselves.

I could make an equally compelling (but not nearly as tired) argument that the Church was the only thing holding the medieval European civilization together, post-Rome/Byzantine. The fact that the only surviving ancient Greek texts (Plato and the boys) were maintained by Christian monks in Ireland would be only one of many sound arguments for the positive role of the Church in the advancement/maintenance of advancement of western mankind. The fact that Universities were created and sustained by the European Church would also be a strong argument for the positive role of the Church in the advancement of western mankind.

I guess I'm simply not willing to see the popular "Church = bad:Scientist = good" statement as either accurate nor fulfilling.

[Fyron]

I have already stated in the other thread that I will not continue these religious debates.

All I will say now is that I said the Church held back advancements, as in, new science, new thinking. I never once said nor implied that it destroyed all old knowledge, or anything to that effect. There is a colossal difference bewteen advancement and preservation.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by jimbob:
Tycho: died when his bladder broke because he was at a dinner party when he needed to go. Evidently the dinner parties were hours long, and it was excedingly rude to get up and leave the table. Personally I think that he should have just eaten a couple of double or triple salts to soak the water back out of the bladder

Can't think this to be true. I once treated a person as a paramedic who had not urinated for 3 days strait and had 6 litres of urine in the bladder. You could see every detail of his guts through the skin as the bladder took all the room and pressed the guts outwards.

[jimbob]

Yah, there is a difference between advancement and progress. As I've read it, just holding onto old knowledge was a feat in and of it's self in the medieval period. It's a bit like the debate in Alberta over our Premier (Governor if you prefer). Is Alberta doing better economically because our Premier is such a smart, organized kinda guy? Or is our economy doing well because we've a huge deposit of oil under us, and world prices are soaring? It could well be a bit from column A, and a bit from column B, but good luck ferreting out exactly how good or bad Premier Ralf has actually been - for all we know he could be lining his pockets with gold, yet the economy keeps booming.

I'd propose that the situation is fairly analogous (but inverted) to what happened in the medieval period. The powerful empires had faded and fallen to smaller tribes, civilization centres such as major cities had been besieged, sacked, and in some cases burned. Wealthy supporters of inovation simply evaporated while tribalism and external threats mounted. In light of such an economic and civilizational crisis, it isn't surprising to see that advancement would for the most part halt. But was the Church responsible for holding back advancements during this period?? It seems that it was unlikely that much of any advancement was going to occur in this environment! To blame the Church, the only social stabilizer of the era, for the paucity of advancement during the period is a bit like blaming the doctor for "killing" the patient when it already died in the Ambulance. Could the doctor save the patient if it hadn't died in transit - who could ever know?

And that's why I think it's just a little to convenient to blame the Church for screwing up Europe. If however you wish to engage in such historical constructions, you should probably start praising Islam for the incredible growth of science (during the same era) throughout the middle-east... fair is fair after all...

[Fyron]

And that's why I think it's just a little to convenient to blame the Church for screwing up Europe. If however you wish to engage in such historical constructions, you should probably start praising Islam for the incredible growth of science (during the same era) throughout the middle-east... fair is fair after all...

I never said that the Church was the only factor.

I will no longer respond to continuations of this debate, so there is not a whole lot of purpose in making them.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by jimbob:
Genghis Kahn: died of a nosebleed when passed out drunk after his wedding

I thought that was atilla the hun.