Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Well keep in mind it doesn't have to be an absolute thing: you can get an E9N4 bless and still have magic diversity if you choose something like an Arch Druid (in CBM). Vanheim is a different situation and the idea of skipping a bless is quite possible with troops like Skinshifters and Einheres and access to blood magic. Alternate approaches are certainly possible but I'd recommend at least an E4N4 bless. All your mages are sacred and even if you don't think a major bless worthwhile Sidhe Lords are your best recruit everywhere mage and thugging is what they're designed for.

Having said that, I ran a test with the Sidhe Lord not casting bless. I had to swap out some of the equipment; Black Steel Plate to help with protection and an Amulet of Reinvigoration in the now open slot where the Bracers were. I actually tried to really help the Shishi with this test: the Sidhe Lord used a Vine Shield instead of an Eye Shield, the Shishi cast flight, and the Sidhe Lord didn't have even minor regeneration.

Sixth Test

Sidhe Lord
Equipment: Frost Brand, Vine Shield, Dragon Helmet, Black Steel Plate, Amulet of Resilience, Pendant of Luck
Script: Barkskin, Mistform, hold, hold, hold, attack
vs.
Female Shishi
Equipment: Girdle of Might, AoMR, Ring of CR
Script: Mirror Image, Mistform, Flight, hold, hold, attack

battle 1 - Shishi routed
battle 2 - Sidhe Lord routed
battle 3 - Shishi routed

By the way, sidhe thugs should never be going up against shishi without an ideal weapon at minimum, because they just plain have no need not to. They can't be jumped on by the shishi, but they can return the favor easily. So all these tests where the sidhe were using frost brands were really suboptimal. Something like a sword of sharpness would make much more sense for these tests.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by rdonj

EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20.

Shishi's have an effective attack skill of 20, as they gain +3 from quickness the moment they enter battle. This isn't factored in to the base value of 17 attack you see displayed outside of battles.

[rdonj]

/headdesk!

I guess you've gotten me back, calahan, after all those times I've taunted you. But I will have my revenge!

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by rdonj

By the way, sidhe thugs should never be going up against shishi without an ideal weapon at minimum, because they just plain have no need not to. They can't be jumped on by the shishi, but they can return the favor easily. So all these tests where the sidhe were using frost brands were really suboptimal. Something like a sword of sharpness would make much more sense for these tests.

Well, it's not that bad. The frost brand does 16 damage, the sword of sharpness 8. With the Sidhe Lords strength of 13 and the Shishi's protection of 20 that's an 11 point difference for the sword of sharpness and a 9 point difference for the frost brand. When you factor in the 3 point advantage in attack of the frost brand I think it comes out ahead. I also think there's a value in having the weapon with an AOE attack in case you unexpectedly need to deal with a crowd or just want to immediately move on to the next fight without having to change equipment. Having said that, a Fire Brand would beat both the Frost Brand and Sword of Sharpness handily - the only drawback being that with this build you won't be able to equip a CR 50+ item so that you can get to CR 100 with elemental fortitude.

But you bring up a good point that these aren't real in-game situations. The Sidhe Lords can choose when to fight and when to sneak away. The Shishi's will have to deal with a counterattack. And I think this is when their limited slots come into play since you won't be able to cover both MR and elemental weaknesses.

[rdonj]

Hmm, you have a point also. I should have said an axe of sharpness, or possibly an axe of hate. I would definitely have gone with fire brand, but was trying to stick to national paths. A fire brand equipped sidhe would easily carve its way through a shishi. Anyway I suppose the initial tests weren't so bad, in retrospect!

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Zzzcat: Llama's point is a Zmey should kill arbitrarily large armies if the armies don't have mage support. The fact that they actually do so is not a problem. Ie, 'virtually unkillable for normal troops without mage support' is what they're supposed to be. WAD.

My concern is with 28 str and 7 attacks it is not only an amry cleaner but also an awesome SC killer. They can tear most SC apart in round 1 if you buff them with quickness/strength of giants/wpn of sharpness and let them attack large monster. Anyway I agree with llama that they don't need too many nerfs. Just lower their strength to ~22 and reduce def/prot slightly maybe enough for them.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by rdonj

I would definitely have gone with fire brand, but was trying to stick to national paths.

No, you're right about that. I was trying to do the same: the Skratti's equipment was all stuff Jotun could forge but I bent the rules a bit on the Sidhe Lord by giving him the Luck Pendant (I usually try to give them one but of course need indies to forge them). Anyway, the Fire Brand came to mind when I was thinking about multi-purpose weapons.

[Aethyr]

Valerius, thank you for sharing the results of your tests.

I was expecting that there would be more discussion on the impact of the mod on various nations, and the degree to which some nations may benefit more than others. What do folks think about this? Does the mod significantly alter the balance of power between nations?

Please note, I'm not suggesting that anything should be changed in an attempt to "balance" power (I like the mod as it is).

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

Worse than a golem scripted with returning? I don't think so...

Originally Posted by llamabeast

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

I personally dislike rocs since they provide a cheap and reliable way to fog warriors for non-air nations. IMO reducing their path to A2 and giving them more defensive ability(awe?) is the way to go.

Originally Posted by llamabeast

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

Fully agree with Rdonj. A mapmove 1 SC who can't retreat in battlefield is a sitting duck for your opponents.

[Fantomen]

Regarding nation balance. This mod greatly boosts air nations like Caelum and earth nations (Ulm, Agartha) Who now gets viable midgame thugs in the shishi and mechanical giant.

I can see a whole MA ulm strategy based on mechanical giant + forge bonus. And a similar one with MA agartha with mechanichal giant leading squads of statues.

The Caelums can just summon as many shishis as possible and send them against anything with lightning resistance.

I tried the treeant. I find it very cool actually, though it might be a bit hard to leverage. It can root and cast bone melter, mossbody and foul vapors, which is some pretty damn cool and underused spells. I think it should be given increased map move in forests. The built in vine shield effect and reinvig makes it possible to weild dual weapons and cast personal quickness. You can get good resistances with items + elemental fortitude, extra reinvig from earthpower, staying power from personal regeneration (24hp regen when rooted!). I really see a lot of cool possibilities. Flying carpets come to mind for these (just imagine a anthropomorphic tree on a flying carpet)