Fools Lament II - Ended - Mictlan wins!!!

[anatoli11]

Glad to see you quit Huzurdaddi!

Just a few facts:
1) Turn 20 on this map is like turn 30 to 35 when every one starts with one province. In my case I was out of independents to attack, so was looking to start fighting other factions.
2) I had discussions with Huzurdaddi before attacking him and we could not come to an arrangement that suited both of us.
3) I didn't organize a "dogpile" against Huzurdaddi - I did however broadcast that I was going to attack him to all players, and it was up to them whether or not they wanted to join in.
4) Huzurdaddi constantly used immature and rude language as well as "death" threats when sending in-game Messages. If he posted on this BBS the kinds of things he sent to me, he would certainly be banded.
5) Huzurdaddi got is mega attack army spanked by me and quit.

I have only played a few MP games and a majority of the players I have played against have kept deals, given notice, played honorably, and taken their lumps, as I have. To his credit, with the exception of the foul language, continual whining, and single-minded fury, Huzurdaddi played the game well enough for me to learn a bunch. But not enough for me to be sad to see you quit...

[Huzurdaddi]

2) I had discussions with Huzurdaddi before attacking him and we could not come to an arrangement that suited both of us.

Pardon? What kind of spin is this? Your lies make me sick. Honestly they really do.

[Gandalf Parker]

This conversation is getting dangerously close to serving no purpose on the forum. Lets all reread the subject of this thread and try to get back to it.

[deccan]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Now, I've been watching this game with interest to see if anything truly weird would evolve as a result of the rather interesting starting situation [which could lead me to update the scenario, so please provide feedback on that, if you would be so kind], but, alas, one other question really raises its ugly head after reading the Last few pages.

I definitely didn't plan for this map properly and so got rather huge stockfiles of gems after a while. So far the main thing I've seen is that everyone is summoning lots and lots of summonables (have to use up those gems somehow!) I've seen Bane Lords galore, Vine Ogres, lots and lots of banes, Ether Warriors (you don't see those often), firbolgs etc. and all rather well equipped too.

Peter Ebbesen said:
As my knowledge of Dominions 2 MP is limited to smaller scale games with friends, I would like to know whether the level of personal attacks, *****ing (of the "I really mean it, scumbag" rather than the "please meet my propaganda department" variety), low-level vitriol, and immature behaviour shown by some players is typical of larger Dominions 2 MP games? Is quitting because you are losing typical or an aberration?

I think that highly dependent on individuals. This is the first time I've seen this kind of personal vitriol in a game (shame on Huzz) and it's very bad.

More often I've seen people trade insults / threats / misinformation etc. through an explicitly role-played character (read Pasha's hilarious newscasts for example). As Thufir and others have pointed out, doing the same on a personal level is highly undesirable.

As for quitting while you're losing, you do see that sometimes. But strangely, I find that newbies do this less, maybe because they're in it just for the fun of the game and to learn., and so are less concerned with being a "contender" to win the game. It seems to me that veterans (and Huzz is definitely a vet) seem more concerned about winning and being competitive.

For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that Huzz has definitely spread his share of misinformation in this game. My attack on him actually Lasted only about 2 turns, but that hasn't stopped him from including me in his list of nations out to get him for everyone else to see. And he has on one occasion send me an in-game message complaining that he has almost no forces left when I first attacked him, when my scouts reported a significant force of 500+ undead quite near me (though maybe most of it was poor quality stuff).

I don't think that misinformation / lies is a bad thing in of itself. It should be properly a part of any strategy game after all. I expect it of others, and I expect others to expect it of me. But it should be clear that such things should be game-related only and should not be personal.

[Peter Ebbesen]

deccan said:
I definitely didn't plan for this map properly and so got rather huge stockfiles of gems after a while. So far the main thing I've seen is that everyone is summoning lots and lots of summonables (have to use up those gems somehow!) I've seen Bane Lords galore, Vine Ogres, lots and lots of banes, Ether Warriors (you don't see those often), firbolgs etc. and all rather well equipped too.

I have to admit that I was especially interested in seing how Ermor turned out, as they have one of the best sets of sites allocated to them, but are surrounded by some really tough nuts to crack. Ermor starts with a construction 20, a conjuration 20, and a Thaumaturgy 40 site, as well as a free-bane site, the Wraith Lord Beyond Reproach, and a starting gem income of 29 death gems per turn on normal settings as either undead variant. Ah, well, being undead leaves no rest for the wicked: All your neighbours want to kill you before your dominion reaches critical mass, and with good cause. Might be a good setup to play living Ermor on, though.

[Yossar]

Huzurdaddi said:
And and Mictlain piling on at the end ... well ... that's pretty classless as well.

Sorry Yossar, but it is.

The only time there was a decent drop in your troops was the one attack I made against your big army (unless someone else made you have huge losses that round). And there was never a serious drop in your number of provinces (even after you went AI, you're still tied with me for first). My attack was nothing that Marignon couldn't have made with a bunch of holy pyre casters and some fodder (was Marignon allied against you?). That implied to me that this "classless alliance" against you was largely ineffective. Maybe that wasn't true, but from the graphs, that was my take on it. You had just run over Ulm like he was nothing and I felt that you were clearly my biggest threat. I'm allied with most of my neighbors, so I cut you down a bit. See it as classless if you want, but if I'm playing to win it was the right move. I'm not playing to let you win, just as you weren't playing to let Ulm win. Was your running over Ulm classless? The only one I am cutting some slack is Jotun, and that's because even though he killed my Ice Devil, he's admitted to being a harmless newbie and I believe him.

Edit: I guess my take is this. If I had premeditated from the start to ally with everyone to take out Ermor, that would be a bit classless. But I was just making a move against who I thought was my biggest threat, so I don't see it as anything out of the ordinary. I didn't go out of my way to destroy you, and doing so didn't hurt me at all. It was just a good, tactical move. I know you don't like it, but we didn't have any prior agreement, so getting angry about it is a bit extreme.

[deccan]

Peter Ebbesen said:
I have to admit that I was especially interested in seing how Ermor turned out, as they have one of the best sets of sites allocated to them, but are surrounded by some really tough nuts to crack.

Actually Ermor is far from being a lost cause IMHO. They still have the biggest army and gem income, are tied for most provinces, have respectable research and income.

And it's not quite true that everyone is ganging up on Ermor. Ulm is almost dead being killed by Ermor I think. Marignon is also fighting Tien Chi and Pangaea at the same time etc. And I haven't been fighting Ermor for a long while now and I'm not strategically well positioned to fight him anyway.

It's a shame that Huz decided to go AI without at least trying to find a sub to play his position. Having Ermor controlled by an AI would make the game a lot less fun IMHO.

[deccan]

Yossar said:
You had just run over Ulm like he was nothing and I felt that you were clearly my biggest threat.

Seems to me that with Ermor now AI, Mictlan is now far and away the biggest threat.

Please don't hurt me, I'm only a middling minor power. *Ducks for cover and waves newbie flag.*

[Huzurdaddi]

I found Ermor to be a very good nation.

The sites are very nice. The bane site is excellent for early expansion. However given Ermor's natural ability for expansion it helps but is not necessary for Ermor's success.

The conjuration and construction sites are very good for ermor. I did not find much use for the Thaumaturgy site. If the game had progressed I planned on using it for GoR to Tartarians, but the game never got that far for me.

Ermor is slightly hampered in the research game at that start since they can not summon as many researchers per turn ( 1.5 / turn ) as other nations can buy mages. To rectify this I went for spectres before I went for anything else. Spectres more than double your research / gem due to the conjuration bonus.

I think that Ermor desperatly covets the Vanhiem's conjuration 50 site and Pangea's 50 Enchantment site ( sadly the Atlantis Version is underwater and many of the spells you would want to cast can not be cast there ).

All your neighbours want to kill you before your dominion reaches critical mass

I'll be honest I have never seen this happen. I'm not 100% sure as to how the rules wrt. dominion flowing though other people's provinces work.

For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that Huzz has definitely spread his share of misinformation in this game.

Deccan that's incorrect. I named you as one of the people who was attacking me when you attacked. I never said anything about you after you bargined for peace. And further more those "troops" on your border were ( I would guestimate ) 95% dispossessed spirits which were used for pillaging.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Peter Ebbesen said:
All your neighbours want to kill you before your dominion reaches critical mass

Huzurdaddi said:
I'll be honest I have never seen this happen. I'm not 100% sure as to how the rules wrt. dominion flowing though other people's provinces work.

I have... Playing Ermor.

It is terrifying to the opposition (according to reliable information from said opposition after the game). Once your dominion builds up to 10 in each core area, it starts spreading like there is no tomorrow unless your enemies have as high a dominion (unlikely, but not impossible, until late game since Ermor usually have a much higher dominion pretender than most other nations) or are preaching like mad (which they will be). They can hold your dominion at bay with preaching, but as soon as you launch an offensive and clear an area of priests for a few rounds, their local dominion will be crushed and the population will soon follow. If timed with raiding to destroy temples in the rear, you will severely restrict their ability to push domain back at you, and even if you have to retreat from your offensive (which, quite possibly, were part of your original plan), you may have managed to destroy a province for gold purposes.

The Lich Queen is an excellent pretender for domain warfare and thematic to boot.

This works best on non-wraparound maps if Ermor can secure an area leading up to a map border (giving you a safe domain-side)

...And is wholly dependent on the oppositions' starting domain. Did all your neighbours start with dominion 8-9? Or do they have substantially more temples than you (each)? Then forget about it.