HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING

[chrispedersen]

Nah you don't need a lot of equipment to make druids effective.
Just storms and storm power.

[archaeolept]

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread?

not pedantic, but not especially relevant. The guide was for pre-nerf Hinnom. I'd take claims of their being vastly over-powered more seriously if those complaining had actually won games with them (against reasonably good opponents). The nerf hit them hard, making them only over-powered. They are certainly not as excessive as Ashdod, and probably no more dangerous in EA than a standard Niefl bless.

[Baalz]

Originally Posted by archaeolept

not pedantic, but not especially relevant. The guide was for pre-nerf Hinnom. I'd take claims of their being vastly over-powered more seriously if those complaining had actually won games with them (against reasonably good opponents). The nerf hit them hard, making them only over-powered. They are certainly not as excessive as Ashdod, and probably no more dangerous in EA than a standard Niefl bless.

In Darkparadise I not only won, I completely dominated to the point that in year three I annihilated the second place power (Sauromatia) over two turns before simultaneously declaring war on all remaining players including (all viable positions) Micltlan, Neifelheim, TC, and Lanka (played by K). That, BTW, included posting this guide around year two so everyone in the game knew exactly the strategy I was pursuing. To be fair that was pre-nerf, but I don't see anything in the nerf that negates the fact that Hinnom is strong or very strong in every aspect of the game leading to a cumulative effect of being more than very strong because a lot of it is a multiplicative effect.

When you're among the leaders in province count because of your initial expansion it stacks with your strong scale income and broad ability to site search leading you to likely be leading in gold, gems & research. Your strong giant troops leave you no need for short term magic research goals, start immediately for your optimal medium/long term goals. You've got a strong blood economy and immediate access to massive blood stone forgings and good national summons. You've got top notch SCs along with standard troops & PD strong enough to fight all but the best elites with no support...but then again you've got 2x as many mages as anybody else so then there's no reason they have to.

Yeah, early game Hinnom is comparable to Neifelhiem, the difference is Neifelhiem fades in power as the game progresses and people manage to field counters, while Hinnom starts at the top of the power distribution and steadily gets more powerful (blood stone forging since year one, blood economy, strong research with diverse mages, strong gold & gem income, arguably the best end game summons available to anybody)

[Calahan]

It might be useful to list exactly what got changed in the 'nerfing patch' so that people can compare Hinnom before and after. I'll have a stab here now, but I may need some help with this as I never really looked at Hinnom pre-nerf, and don't currently have any pre-nerf patchs close at hand to check them out.

The Bold Text is taken from the patch history notes....

- Hinnom PD reduced
My quick test shows you currently get.
upto 20PD...
An Avvite Commander
1.5 Avvite Light Infantry for every 2 points of PD
1 Avvite Swordsman for every 2 points of PD

...above 20PD...
A Kohen
1 Avvite Heavy Archer for every 2 points of PD

What was it before the patch?

- Hinnom start army reduced
You currently get...
6 Avvite Light Infantry
6 Avvite Swordsman

What was it before the patch?

- Hinnom Popkillers give some unrest

- Avvite Chariot -> 5
This guide says they used to be size 6.

- Dawn Guard -> 45gp
This guide hints at them being 40gp before.

- Melqart Blood -> 3
??? Guessing it was 4?

- Ba'al Blood -> 2
?? Guessing it was 3?

- Ba'al eat Melqart event reversed.


Please feel free to comment on, or correct, anything I have listed above. And please forgive my blindness if any of the missing info is somewhere in the guide.

If we can nail down exactly what got changed, then we can work out exactly what change is supposed to have turned this super nation into merely an overpowered one.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Baalz

W - with a water bracelet (or W gems) you can drop freezing mist, which is very, very good in combination with undead troops, skellispam, etc. or even just leveraging your much higher hitpoints and regen. Can also drop quickness & quickening which is iffy for your encumb-5 giants, but very, very nice for Morrigans. If you're in the water (which you should be) you can drop shark attack, friendly currents & grip of winter.

D - With a skull staff already mentioned wailing winds & winds of death. Also, terror, shadow blast, disintegrate, and skellispam (which tends to be a good counter to giant-slaying things).

W - Frozen Heart is very good for a W1 spell.

D - Skelly spam from a D2 mage isn't really worth doing--too much fatigue--especially if you need to blow 7 D gems on a skull staff for it. You'd get a better skelly density out of a regular old skull talisman on an indy commander.

Note: I don't mean that casting "Raise Skeletons" once or twice might not be worth doing, but in my book it's not "spam" unless you're actually able to spam it... 30+ skeletons every turn is skelly spam, 5 skeletons every 8-9 turns is not, and 5 every 8 is what you get from a Fomorian Druid w/ skull staff.

-Max

[Executor]

Frozen heart is a great spell, although you probably couldn't script too much of it's due to short range, and I don't know if the AI would cast it on it's own.

I'm looking at my old game with Hinnom,
I think Hinnom had 8 - 8 starting army before the patch,
Baal had blood 3 and random 4.
Actually I think Melqart had an increase in blood by 1.

The funniest part was the fact that you could use unequiped Hinnom scouts to take out 1PD of many nations, still can.

[statttis]

Druids are great for casting frozen heart because they can safely be put up front. With 30hp and a E/N bless they're not easy to kill.

Hinnom still has probably the best starting army in the game. I took the starting army + first turn recruitment and expanded forever without losses.

[Edi]

Originally Posted by happygeek

Hey this is all fascinating. Sorry for being so new, mind if I ask? I havent played Hinnom more than 3 turns in SP (just started now to see what it's like), what I cant figure out is
- where does it say that population dies because of the units? I cant see that tag on any of the units. Just the gluttony. But I thought that is only for supplies?

Gluttony is just for supplies. Popeating does not have an icon, but they do eat population, as per description text. It is one of those special abilities that doesn't have an icon, just like increased chance to escape from Inferno, Kokytos or the Void, stormflying, and a number of others.

[JaghataiKhan]

popeating also bring unrest I presume? Or are they different factors?

Unruly human slaves, why don't you stay obedient and let me eat your babies?!

[MaxWilson]

Yes, popeating causes unrest. I can't remember if it was always that way or was added as part of the Hinnom balance patch.

-Max