Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by rdonj

EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20.

Shishi's have an effective attack skill of 20, as they gain +3 from quickness the moment they enter battle. This isn't factored in to the base value of 17 attack you see displayed outside of battles.

[rdonj]

/headdesk!

I guess you've gotten me back, calahan, after all those times I've taunted you. But I will have my revenge!

[Calahan]

During my tests with the Shishi, I found the burning pearl helped a fair bit when attacking against high defence. Better than luck quite often. (no point negating half of the hits against you if you still can't hit yourself)


Plus it's not just about a one-on-one match-up, as you have to consider what would actually happen during a game. As in that scenario the PD comes into the equation. Since if you have a Shishi in the field and expect it to be ambushed, paying just 60g for 10PD often either interrupts the attacking Shishi killer during buffing, or provides other targets for the Shishi killer to focus on, meaning the Shishi has a number of free hits. And of course the attacks by the PD help lower the defence of the Shishi killer.


Either way I think lowering the attack value on the Shishi by 6 will achieve the desired result for now. As 17 really is at the top end of natural attack scores, and that's without adding the +3 from quickness and +1 from experience (which they'd likely get from their first raid).

The attack value of the Shishi really is critical IMO, as whatever value it is will automatically go through a big force multiplier because of the six attacks. And any extra attack points the Shishi gets from any source is going to be boosted comparatively more for the Shishi than for other units, because of this force multiplier.


Giving the Shishi a natural attack value of 11 (14 in battle) = Good idea in my book.

Originally Posted by rdonj

/headdesk!

I guess you've gotten me back, calahan, after all those times I've taunted you. But I will have my revenge!

You know where to find me rdonj. So you're welcome to try whenever you're ready

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

False.
I had one killed, despite being kitted, etc. because it just crawled underwater and got stuck first with some mermen, second with ice encasings. When he routed due to turn limit, he wasn't fast enough to actually get out of the battlefield and eventually died. My bane lords fared much better...
I still say grendelkin needs amphibious.
Did people actually use it in MP before saying it's overpowered?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Did people actually use it in MP before saying it's overpowered?

Why limit that comment to just Grendelkin? It applies to virtually every complaint in this thread. The mod has been used in like 4 MP games, none of which is using its current form. People just have this strong 'OMG' reaction, because they're comparing them to the wrong things or just don't understand the mechanics or can't be bothered to actually playtest. I mean, some of these are meant to be alternatives to *tartarians*, they need to be pretty amazing.

Anyone comparing Cyclops, Asynja, Grendelkin, and Emberlords (and probably a few others) to anything but Tartarians is comparing them to the wrong things. Your analysis is worthless because you've missed the point. Asynja's being 'easy blood access?' Oh for the love of pete, you're at Conjuration ~8, seriously, whatever, totally irrelevant. Stop failing to see the forest for the trees.

And anyone complaining about overpowered without actually playing games, especially MP games, with them is just whining. Stop that.

Llama, can I ask you hold off on making any changes until you hear back from real MP games how things actually worked?

[Gregstrom]

I vote to reduce Shishi attack by 6.

[Zeldor]

I still think that Shishis are not OP at all, as Valerius tests show. I wouldn't complain if there were a bit weaker vs undead/demons and stronger than now against normal stuff. I almost lost one to some markata PD + B1 mages last turn :P And you can always drop on them with proper gear and they cannot even run away really...

[Squirrelloid]

I disagree on any lowering of Shishi attack before we get some real data. Valerius's data is the best we have and points to there being no real problem.

Also, a fricking air mage who is summonable with air gems is a godsend for magic diversifying off a pretender. Rocs are fricking awesome - they aren't for air powers, they're for nations diversifying into air. Its like saying Kokythiads are useless because its a WD mage that requires WD to summon - NO.

Edit:
Zzzcat: Llama's point is a Zmey should kill arbitrarily large armies if the armies don't have mage support. The fact that they actually do so is not a problem. Ie, 'virtually unkillable for normal troops without mage support' is what they're supposed to be. WAD.

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Zzzcat: Llama's point is a Zmey should kill arbitrarily large armies if the armies don't have mage support. The fact that they actually do so is not a problem. Ie, 'virtually unkillable for normal troops without mage support' is what they're supposed to be. WAD.

My concern is with 28 str and 7 attacks it is not only an amry cleaner but also an awesome SC killer. They can tear most SC apart in round 1 if you buff them with quickness/strength of giants/wpn of sharpness and let them attack large monster. Anyway I agree with llama that they don't need too many nerfs. Just lower their strength to ~22 and reduce def/prot slightly maybe enough for them.

[Aethyr]

Valerius, thank you for sharing the results of your tests.

I was expecting that there would be more discussion on the impact of the mod on various nations, and the degree to which some nations may benefit more than others. What do folks think about this? Does the mod significantly alter the balance of power between nations?

Please note, I'm not suggesting that anything should be changed in an attempt to "balance" power (I like the mod as it is).