SE5, Tell Aaron what's on your Wish List

[Louist]

Yef said:
I don't think Technological degradation really happens.
Do you think in the future we are going to forget how to make computers?
Unlikely, unless something catastrophic happens.

Any Classicist or Medievalist can tell you all about the fall of the Roman Empire and the following Dark Ages. That is the first example of technological degradation that comes to mind.

Second, Heron of Alexandria had devoloped a primitive "steam engine" which was used in religious ceremonies to create an atmosphere of majesty and wonder. These "steam engines" harnessed steam to open bronze doors, lift ceremonial thrones, and make statues of snakes hiss. Heron lived just under 2000 years ago.

And, more recently, it was discovered that the world as a whole seems to have lost the ability to maintain or create old WWII Lancaster Bombers. There is a group of engineers in Canada dismembering one in an attempt to figure out how build a new one. I think they were expecting it to take ten years.

Off topics aside, I'd like to see this as well. Think of it as a research 'maintentance' to be paid. I think degradation would be dificult to work out in SE, but there should be a base research point cost to be paid each turn before research can take place, and if these points can't be paid, you lose a tech. Just like if you cannot make maintenance costs can't be paid, you lose a ship. Think of it this way: If you have a large empire spanning 50 systems, and you have run to the end of the tech tree. You will likely scrap all those research facilities in favour of something more useful. Suddenly you've removed the intellectual core of your empire. There is no one training the coming generations, and the knowledge of all the empire's techs dies out with the old scientists. Sure, the old textbooks and whatnot still survive, but do you really think you could really build a nuclear plant after reading some books on nuclear physics? Thats why we have teachers. Words on paper can only instruct and convey so well.

Also- I'd like to see some turnbased gameplay OUTSIDE of hotseat. We play a lot of SE V over the lan over here, and none of us are very fond of simultaneous game play, even if it is faster. It takes so much of the control away.

Just my two cents.

[Suicide Junkie]

Louist said:
Also- I'd like to see some turnbased gameplay OUTSIDE of hotseat. We play a lot of SE V over the lan over here, and none of us are very fond of simultaneous game play, even if it is faster. It takes so much of the control away.

You are talking about making the game into an RTS. All of the beta testers are committed to avoiding such a nasty fate.

This is a hard-core turn based strategy series. Plan your strategies around your hull designs, and plan your hull designs around your available strategies. Then send in your hundred-ship fleets to do battle.

Tactical combat is fun when you're playing with 10 or 20 ship fleets...
But, as my one poker buddy would say "we ain't playing tiddlywinks here". Send in your 300 ship fleets, primed with fine-tuned strategies and designs.

In CB3, I just schooled a guy by sending 300 ships against his 400 ship ambush. My well controlled ships executed a two-pronged pincer attack, with dedicated assault ships, PD ships, antifighter boats, missile bombardment and carriers with bombers and interceptors. All did their own thing, and worked together to overcome his 30%-50% statistical advantage (many of his vehicles were actually huge carriers)

Screenshot:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...Tudran2_02.jpg

You simply *can't* play a serious game using hotseat tactical combat. That took 12 hours to process (admittedly on an old machine), and resulted in a six megabyte combat file.

[Louist]

I can see your point. But then, the SE series being a bit of a niche game has its own niche players. I can't speak for everyone I play and lan with, but I have trouble managing larger or later simultaneous games. I realize that it's beneith a lot of you pbw players, but I'd just like the option to play turn based. Or even a simultaneous game without end of turn processing, which a few other turn based games have worked out. I'm certainly not looking to make SEV an RTS, but I would like to be able to suppliment my designing and fleet ordering skills with pure hands on control.

[Fyron]

How would that work, though? Lets say player A has a fleet in player B's space. He could move it to a safer, defensible position in a turn before player B happens to look at the system in question. Now, player B is at a disadvantage not due to better strategy or better gameplay, but purely because he didn't click fast enough. This sort of click-festing nature can work ok in a mind-numbingly simple RTS game where there are very few locations and units on the map, but falls apart in a complex strategy game. If you have simultaneous issue ordering and execution, in real time, the game will become a mess.

Real time combat hairiness can be mitigated by agreeing not to issue any orders during the active time phases, only during the auto-paused phases. But how do you translate this to the main portion of the game?

[Louist]

Try games like Age of Wonders, which uses a simultaneous-turn system. Believe me, it's not a mind numbing click fest. To the best of my knowledge, what it does is processes the turn bit by bit. It is much more like everyone playing a turn based game at the same time. It places a limit on how quickly you can move units (So you don't suddenly have player B's fleet surrounded by ships player A brought in from neighbouring systems) but otherwise works out just like a regular turn based game mode. When you are done your turn you just hit end turn like normal, and when everyone has finished, the game moves on to the next turn. I understand your point, but I suggest you give a simultaneous/turn game a quick play to see what I mean. It works out very smoothly, and without the rush of real time games (Which I myself can't play worth a damn). I realize it would never make it into SEV, but I'd love to see it added to future SE titles. Who knows, you might find that you actualy enjoy it.

If you do want to give that style of play a look, if nothing else, you could find Age of Wonders and AoW2 in a bargin bin somewhere, or on amazon for 10$. I'll try to think of what other games I know uses the system.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ah, but see?
It IS turn based!

You can tell your ships to move hither and yonder, and chase this or that, and drop troops and load fighters.
They execute the orders simultaneously.

And you give these guys their combat orders ahead of time in the form of strategies.

Personally, I love playing tactical combat and wincing as my ships take fire and trying to manoeuver them just so to protect the damaged ones and get everybody out alive.
But playing big games with lots of stuff is great too. And by creating your own strategies you can really make the ships do some surprisingly effective things.

Tactical combat just dosen't work in non hotseat multiplayer. Because you're not there to play it!


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As for the map orders, you have better control in simultaneous... you can still do almost everything, and you can even cancel orders if you think better of it.

[Louist]

I'm not trying to argue that it is or isn't turn based lol. All I'm trying to say is that I'd like to see SE current turn based mode as an option for lan/internet games. We all wan't SEV and following to be the best possible game (in our view) and for me that would do it. 156 pages of posts from everyone just proves that.

As for the tactical combat- I play mostly lan games (and a few internet games) with friends. We don't use pbw or email, but are playing at the same time, so we would be there to play it.

Like I said, though, this is a wish list and I'm putting forward my wish. I realize it's too late for it to ever make SEV, but I think it's far too early to take it off the list at all.

[Major_SNAFU]

Please someone tell me that there will be an integrates note-pad so you can annotate individual planets, fleets, etc. in SEV.

This series of great games is long overdue for this feature.

[dogscoff]

Major_SNAFU: See my post about half a dozen posts down from here...

[Captain Kwok]

There's actually notes pages available for some of the items but I can't recall offhand which ones.