OT: US Pres election

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

As to the Iraq war, we were sold a bill of goods that wasn't true. History cannot be undone, only learned from. And I would like to think that by fighting this battle now, we saved our children from having to fighter it at a much higher cost in the future. Does that make it right, no, we were misled and although I don't personally believe that Bush knew the extent of the lies, I do believe that he should share in some of the blame for what happened. However PBS has a Front Line episode that explains why the war went south when it became a policing effort following the end of mission accomplished.

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold. It makes me very sick to think, however, that many innocent people were harmed, killed, and jailed because of our failure to anticipate the reality of what it was we chose to do. My God have mercy on us for that horrific blunder that cost so many lives. Our troops are doing good in Iraq, my nephew is there and he and his fellow soldiers having nothing but good things to say about the progress going on in Iraq now following the surge.

While the road to a better Iraq has been a bloody one, with Gods will and the work of good people, Iraq will, as we are seeing now, recover and prosper. I don't blame Bush for the failures in Iraq, I blame that on the murdering SOB terrorists, Dick Cheney, and Ronald Dumbsfield. Firing that prick was the best thing Bush has done to date. If anything, Bush's greatest failure was in not firing that SOB sooner.

Obama has the potential of becoming a great leader, I just genuinely pray that he does so without abrogating our constitutional rights.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by thejeff

And it is again somewhat misleading to claim that

and

The Democratic majority in Congress, especially in the Senate, is slim. Bush has threatened or wielded his veto pen against pretty much anything the Democrats have tried. And the Republicans in the Senate have stood firm together and ensured that any Democratic bills have needed 60 votes overcome a filibuster. Often the Democratic leadership, not being able to enact their own solutions and believing that something must be done, has brought the White House's proposals to the floor and allowed them to pass with a majority of Republican and a few Democratic votes.
A president with a strong minority in Congress is hardly powerless, especially one who has expanded the power of the executive as no administration since Nixon has tried to do. And one who seems willing to play chicken with the welfare of the country to avoid any compromise.

You are correct and I suspect that this will be why the Republicans will be resoundingly beaten in two weeks. Lets face it, we dropped the ball more than once and now its time to pay the price for our failures. I am a moderate independent with a leaning tendency toward the right mainly because I value equal points of view, the second amendment, and the truth. Both sides lie very well, but both sides have good values. while I often attack the liberals I do share many of their ideals. I believe that we have the right to choose our time of death, I believe firmly that people have the right under the law to equal representation, the right to share in life and life choices equally under the law, the right to choose for ourselves what is right for us. Protection for gay couples equally under the law as given to married heterosexuals. I believe in protecting our environment, providing for the needy, health care for all, even helping illegal immigrants to become tax paying US citizens. Hell I believe it is our duty to provide protection to all who enter our country, be that putting up aid and water stations in the desert with the absolute promise that any who use these facilities shall be aloud to do so without fear, to providing health care to any who need it. I believe that our government should never lie to us, and that the best feeling in the world is the greats gift God has given us, and that is to help our fellow human beings. I value the constitution and as I have stated many times, the first and second amendments above all. I am proud that we live in a nation that has forsaken its ugly past and unified its people under one flag equally without preconditions. I love the fact that while I often get angry over what I believe to be injustices, we live in a just society and with the right leadership can do more, become more, and be more than what we are.

However, the captain of the ship is the one who is solely responsible for the well being of the ship. If the ship runs aground in the middle of the night, the captain is held responsible, even if he was soundly sleeping at what is a normal sleep period. Others will also accrue punishments, but the man in charge is ultimately held responsible.

You are 100% correct. The buck stops at that desk and the person sitting behind it should butch up and take the heat. So many things were done wrong over the last 16 years that it makes the next 16 years seem like an insurmountable hurtle. But with any luck, we will come through this better than when we went into it.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I call the patriot act a tool that could be horribly abused if permitted to be mishandled. Thankfully there is no direct evidence that it has been abused domestically and was re-affirmed by a democratic congress after much thoughtful review.

It is also one of the biggest limitations, if not the biggest that I know of, of those constitutional rights that you seemed to be so aware of. Does it only take some nicely packaged words to sway your principles?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

So you come across as somebody who is totally unprotected against manipulation by the media. Maybe a simplistic black and white view on things, too, but I don't want to exaggerate too much into this.

If you say that Saddam was perceived as a real threat, when what did that threat look like? This is mostly a rhetoric question, but think about it and tell how Saddam could have been a threat to the US. Limited range of missiles is only the beginning - I'm at a loss if I want to imagine how some backwater country is fighting a numerically and technologically vastly superior superpower, especially getting at their grounds and gaining anything from it in the mid to long term. If a cold war Soviet Union failed against the United States, how could the Iraq have succeeded? Unknown super weapons? Secret Moon Bases? I admit, I'm getting polemical.

One thing that I don't want to touch again is that there was absolutely no link at all from 9/11 to Saddam. Was it just that the time was right?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold.

I dislike this altruistic perception of the USA as a worldwide police force. I simply cannot keep up this image in my mind anymore. There are dozens of warlords in Africa that committed and still commit far greater atrocities than Saddam ever did, and they're still alive, they're still doing this. Why doesn't the self-declared peace force get to work there? And as I said earlier, I am quite uncertain if the quality of live in Iraq has really improved and if you can call it "prospering" now. Maybe in the long term. Much later.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

It is also one of the biggest limitations, if not the biggest that I know of, of those constitutional rights that you seemed to be so aware of. Does it only take some nicely packaged words to sway your principles?

Originally Posted by Atrocities

The fact was we genuinely believed that Saddam was a threat. From credible news stories from ABC to the History channel the argument against Saddam was believed to be valid. History proved otherwise.

So you come across as somebody who is totally unprotected against manipulation by the media. Maybe a simplistic black and white view on things, too, but I don't want to exaggerate too much into this.

I am sorry but this comment of yours seems to be on the verge of some sort of unwarranted personal attack. Is that your intent here?

If you say that Saddam was perceived as a real threat, when what did that threat look like? This is mostly a rhetoric question, but think about it and tell how Saddam could have been a threat to the US.

I can only reiterate what was in the media at the time. So I cannot add much to this other than that. I would point out that a bunch of dudes living in mud huts managed to take down four planes, two buildings, and punch a hole in the Pentagon. Saddam, with much more resources at this disposal, could, and at the time was believed to be a threat. Again, we were wrong.

One thing that I don't want to touch again is that there was absolutely no link at all from 9/11 to Saddam. Was it just that the time was right?

These are the facts and they cannot be denied.

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Am I sad to see him overthrown and dead, no, the man was a tyrant responsible for more deaths than all of the deaths that followed the US invasion by 10 fold.

I dislike this altruistic perception of the USA as a worldwide police force. I simply cannot keep up this image in my mind anymore. There are dozens of warlords in Africa that committed and still commit far greater atrocities than Saddam ever did, and they're still alive, they're still doing this. Why doesn't the self-declared peace force get to work there? And as I said earlier, I am quite uncertain if the quality of live in Iraq has really improved and if you can call it "prospering" now.

I cannot dispute your comments here as they are true. There are far worse SOB's than Saddam and there is no excuse for any civilized nation to allow them to continue to reap horrors upon innocent people.

As to your uncertainty about the quality of life in Iraq, I can only repeat what I have been told by my nephew who was their. I have no reason to doubt him or his word. But I concede your point, until the mainstream media gets off its collective arses and finally gets down to doing some real unbiased reporting, we will not know the truth about Iraq's alleged prosperity.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I am sorry but this comment of yours seems to be on the verge of some sort of unwarranted personal attack. Is that your intent here?

I was only hinting at it by my "I admit I'm getting polemical" sentence earlier, but to get this straight across, no, I am not interested in attacking you personally. I mostly want to get you to think. I am not somebody who is reasonably convinced by conspiracy theories, but at the same time I don't trust the media or politicians too much. I still hope that I can come to my own conclusions about things, and I hope that they're right. Better than just letting others do the thinking for me and adopt their position undigested.

Originally Posted by Atrocities

I can only reiterate what was in the media at the time. So I cannot add much to this other than that. I would point out that a bunch of dudes living in mud huts managed to take down four planes, two buildings, and punch a hole in the Pentagon.

Something that, and here unfortunately I might come across as a heretic in a medieval "there is only one truth, and it's our truth, no questions" society, is still disputed territory. As far as I know, the FBI still did not find any direct link of the 9/11 suicide bombers and Bin Laden. Except some videos with muffled voices. You get lots of those after each of these kinds of attacks, I guess. I remember that I defaced my own websites some years ago for a week or so. A few weeks later, I found a russian cracker site on the web that claimed that they hacked my site and defaced it. :P

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by lch

I was only hinting at it by my "I admit I'm getting polemical" sentence earlier, but to get this straight across, no, I am not interested in attacking you personally. I mostly want to get you to think. I am not somebody who is reasonably convinced by conspiracy theories, but at the same time I don't trust the media too much. I still hope that I can come to my own conclusions about things, and I hope that they're right. Better than just letting others do the thinking for me and adopt their position undigested.

Very well said.

[Azselendor]

the USA Patrtiot act is the greatest piece of gun control legislation EVER written. Think about it. It gives the president and government unprecedented powers and no one really bothered to oppose it -hell, read it- until after it was passed into law.

The jeff is absolutely right, the Democrats, lacking the ability to build a super majority or coalition in the government, were left at the mercy of the filibuster. I have to appauld the founding fathers for that as it is a great tool of the minority to defend itself against the majority (who whould be protecting the interests of the minority as well as their own. Now thanks to the failure of the Bush Administration, the democrats are damned close to having a super majority and with the economy going down faster then the hindenberg, many republicans are willing to break with GOP rank and file to save their necks in the next election on 2010 (senate/house)

I'm looking at your John McCain. He says maverick. I say oppurtunisic waffle.

As for bush being an idiot, I sincerely hope no one believes he is incompetent. I believe his country yokel act is merely an act. Yes, he commits faux pas, but everyone has too. He just happens to have cameras crammed up every part of his body to catch it for the evening news.

Edratman is very right. If he's will to claim all the credit for sunny days, he deserves the credit when it rains. For example, saying bush isn't responsible for the actions of those under him is like saying heinrich himmler isn't responsible for the holocaust.

On North Korea, I don't think we'll see that communist regime fall anytime soon. We've seen multiple generations raised under that and when people are raised into a particular ideology, it gets hard to break. As long as china props them up, we can't hope to see things change there.

[Atrocities]

Oh dear, sorta kinda bad news for Obama. Read Looks like he is a socialist. Signed the paper work any ways.

Newspaper shows Obama belonged to socialist party
Democrat's campaign denied allegations, but new evidence indicates membership

At this point I say who the hell cares any more? I am very thankful that soon all of this will be over and we can get back to being mad about important things like our games not arriving on time, or whether to order a Pizza with mushrooms or not. Our voices are never heard over the roar of those with big money and hidden agenda's. So in the end our votes mean about as much in the grand electoral scheme of things as a fart in the wind, and they last about as long.

[Edratman]

I had a brain fart today and decided to actually look at the Patriot Act. The actual act itself may have been written in Etruscan for all I was able to make of it (I did determine that I will never be bored to death).

The following is an excerpt I obtained from a White House site on the Dept. of Homeland Security and its purpose:

"Protect the American people, our critical infrastructure, and key resources. To protect the lives and livelihoods of the American people, we must undertake measures to deter the threat of terrorism, mitigate the Nation's vulnerability to acts of terror and the full range of man-made and natural catastrophes, and minimize the consequences of an attack or disaster should it occur."

To my slightly (sic) offbeat thinking, it appears to me that Patriot Act allows the government to charge many in the financial industry with terrorism and ship them to Cuba or some other black site for perpetual limbo.

I'm willing to send a substantial check to the Barbed Wire Fund if it would help.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Azselendor

As for bush being an idiot, I sincerely hope no one believes he is incompetent. I believe his country yokel act is merely an act. Yes, he commits faux pas, but everyone has too. He just happens to have cameras crammed up every part of his body to catch it for the evening news.

I didn't say that. Idiot, no. Incompetent, yes. As in "unfit for president". I'd invite him to a BBQ, he seems like an amicable guy, but as for what he's done as a president, a lot of things were nothing short of a disaster.

I still don't quite get Atrocities problems with the words "social", "socialism" and "socialist". Is that word taboo? Is America still living the cold war?