Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[llamabeast]

Okay, version 1.04 is out. See the first post for changelist.

To answer the comments above suggesting waiting for gameplay responses before making further changes: that does indeed make sense. However, I would prefer new games about to start to use a version of the mod which I feel is as good as I can currently make it. It would be very frustrating to have a number of games report back and say "the Zmey is useless" (as it probably was in the first version) or "Treants can easily be screwed over by immobile opponents" when I have already realised this and have the solution.

The only real pure balance changes in this version are -5 to attack to the Shishi (I guess Zeldor won't like this, and NooBliss will think it's too little). I thought about it carefully though. The other changes are either thematic, following additional consideration, or to do with limiting magic diversification.

As Valerius points out in his insightful post (#236), it is sort of an anomaly that it is not easy, given powerful air or fire magic (or astral), to summon new casters in those paths. With A3 the Roc would "correct" this. However I actually really don't want to change this more than necessary - I think it is good and very interesting that the paths vary in how easy it is to get into them. In fact in general I don't really want to encourage diversification, although I can't help doing so a little. I've therefore reduced the Roc's magic to A2. This is quite a nasty nerf for the Roc, and so I've given him some stat boosts to try to help. Similar thinking has led me to change the magic paths on the Kraken considerably (why should water nations gain access to all sorcery paths?).

This version could be considered a "release candidate" for a long-term version of the mod ("v1.1"). If anyone points out any glaring mistakes in the near future I reserve the right to make some fixes, but otherwise I plan to keep the mod the same for some time. This will give time for comments for MP games to accumulate and offer further insight, so that over a rather long time frame there may be another version ("v1.2"). Anyway, basically this version should be fit for MP use and if you start learning about the units as they stand, they're not expected to change much in future.

Since the last version there have been lots of *really* helpful and insightful comments, all of which I have read several times over. Thanks very much everyone for those.

[LDiCesare]

If I want a kraken, I need to start underwater. For a troll king, I don't. Troll kings are more varied than grendelkins, come earlier, generate gems, come with a retinue. After testing, I see no reason to waste gems on grendelkins. I've had more success with a bane lord than with a grendelkin. Grendelkins seem to be made for a niche that I have no use for. After losing my second kitted grendelkin, I'm going for a sea troll. I know that he can reduce the same oppo to pulp with his retinue, i.e. for less gems overall.
Now if I don't want to fight underwater, would I pick a grendelkin? Maybe. But given the paths I chose in my game, I'd already have tartarians in that game if I hadn't tried to go with this beast. So now, should I want a land SC, I'll still research tarts as it's much more efficient and powerful, and not actually longer to research. It'll also free water gems for boots of speed, frost brands, water breathing trinkets and cold resistance items.

[Squirrelloid]

Llama, the Roc is useless at A2. I certainly won't use them. At A3 they were actually useful.

I'm pro-diversification - because otherwise everyone needs to summon tarts for magic diversity. I'm also anti-'the best summonable caster with this path is summoned via a different path'. Making Rocs A2 just removed any real reason to possibly summon them.

Basically, this is a very bad change. I will not update to the most recent release, and will continue to host games with the old one.

(Edit: I also hate to see whiners win. There was zero evidence Rocs were overpowered at A3. And unless it received godly stats (ballpark MR22 Att 20 Def 20 Str30 to make up for lack of full slots) it'll never be worth summoning without useful magical might.)

[Zeldor]

Hmm... I don't think I will ever summon A2 Roc. I'd rather forge gate cleaver if I want forge bonus. For patrol it's too expensive [and I can use Male Shishi]. If I want smth that can trapeze well, I have Shishis. If I want spellcaster, I have Asynja. I see absolutely no use for Roc now.

[llamabeast]

Squirrel, I agree that there is some danger that the Roc will be of little use at A2. Or rather, I expect he will be pretty niche. However I don't feel it's within the scope of the mod to significantly change the paths to gaining access to magic paths - that's the only reason for the change. Nothing to do with it being OP.

It's slightly frustrating, because if I had managed to think properly about path access before making the first versions, the Roc would have been A2 from the start (it's nothing to do with whiners) and probably no-one would have suggested it be A3.

Now I realise you disagree with me about path access, that's fine. You are genuinely more than welcome to integrate a version of the EDM into your squirrel balance mod, and make the roc A3 there.

[Aethyr]

Llama, while I repsect your decision, I'm curious as to why you feel the Roc "opens up air". Afterall, it takes A4 to summon in the first place. What am I missing?

[kianduatha]

I'm just utterly failing to understand the proposed niche for the Kraken. It doesn't do anything for the Water nations, who already had enough power to crush a non-underwater nation going for them in the oceans. And it's aquatic, which means the land nation needs to already have a way to take water provinces and hold them for a few turns...and if you can do that, why on earth do you need a Kraken?

Aethyr, it's that if you have a pretender with A4(a good breakpoint anyways) you can suddenly have other high air casters, where that wasn't possible before. It allows you to project air buffs in multiple places(and without endangering your pretender!) which flatly wasn't possible before.

[rdonj]

I do think the Roc has a very useful and viable niche even with the air magic reduction... they have a lot to offer as support units. I do wish they'd kept the A3 though :P Perhaps a cost reduction might be in order now?

[Sajuuk]

See，Llama hold the same opinion that new path should not be accessed too easy if the game itself doesn't provide so Some would say tartarians, but D itself is very hard to access, if you don't have D on national mage or pretender, then the only hope is 10% chance on trible shaman plus some high N or S booster......

I like the change on kraken, it is no longer such a great way to access astral or death that many land nation would like to get an underwater province for it. But it is still a powerful thug, with summon water power, water shield and iron skin, iron will plus some misc item, it will have 20 protection, 21 defence,17*10 attack and 22 mr, with 180 hp. It does not immune to its own poison ink, though. Maybe the only real problem is enchanment 7 would be a little too late....

Roc became a little useless, since we can summon 2 A2 shishi with 30 gems, 15 for each, why summon one A2 roc with 25 Gem? If roc is cheaper than shishi(18 gems maybe,shishis are currently too cheap, 15 gems for a A2 thug...), those nation with only pretender access to A will gladly summon a lot of rocs.

I still insist that asynja is a little too good: with A2, stealth and glamour, she is an excellent SC, raider and sc hunter, yet she has a quite some chance for A4, B2, D2 or E2, capable to take the role as ritual mage or Battlefield enchantment caster, and she only cost you 35 gems, then why would I spend A gems on anything else? So I think increase her cost a little and reduce random pick into one would be better......

Cyclops should be an excellent SC, but 30 gems for E3 mage is also a bargain, so why not change his path into E2F2, so he can still cast many self buff spell plus phoenix pyre but no longer battle enchantment？

Btw，why not add "alive" version of tartarian cyclops into this spell? It can be randomly choose one from E2F2 granite cyclops, E3 smith cyclops or E2A2 lightning cyclops

[Dimaz]

Make Roc A2 + 25%A if A2 and A3 both create problems That way getting A3 caster will cost lots of gems.