MP: Chlorolera is made of contagious and deadly!

[Incabulos]

Thanks for organising the game

[AdmiralZhao]

Good game everyone. The Sleeping Princess of Man is to be the new Generaless of the West and will be responsible for subduing those nations who resist the divine order. Bubbles and his Rishi will help those who wish for peace in re-integrating into civilian life and putting aside their warlike ways.

Juffos, thanks for setting up and running the game.

A quick AAR for those who are interested:
For Shinuyama, this game could be summarized by a single word: humongoluck. A characteristic example of this would be around turn 25, when we discovered the Cedar Pillar (30% enchantment bonus), and then the next turn had a fortunate event which placed a castle on top of the site (this despite taking misfortune 2). More importantly, I had a great starting position, probably the best I've had in any SP or MP game. Of the starting 6 provinces, 5 had between 10000-18000 population, and that sort of pattern continued on through out many of my other initial in indies. My favorite one had 26000 and a gem deposit on it. Then there was the fact that I had a corner start, that my northern neighbors were literally on the other side of the map, and that I had plenty of water provinces to let my amphibious Pretender and troops shine. All in all, it was a perfect petri dish for Shinuyama expansion.

Early on my main source of anxiety was my Western neighbors of Arcos and Bandar Log. From previous games I've seen JimMorrison and DonCorazon to be very humorous, skilled, and generally easy going players, so I thought we would quickly establish NAP3s and then go about the business of conquering indies and then weaker nations. I envisioned it as an enlightened meeting of the minds, as between the Pope, Mother Theresa, and the Buddha. Instead, it turned into a vicious brawl, as between three drunken and low-class Irishmen. I expanded one province too far to the west, thus nearly starting a war with Bandar, and then they rushed Arco, and then I expanded too far again with Arco when it looked like they were going to be destroyed. After that Arco and Bandar Log made peace and threatened to join up against me, and it was a couple of more months of posturing, pleading, and maneuvering before I could move north again. No one really gained anything from the fighting, though it did at least sow the seeds of bitter dissension that would help prevent concerted action later on.

After that Shinuyama fought its first and only real war against Ashdod. Juffos played them very well, and came close to defeating 4-5 nations in the first 30 turns. Unfortunately, he ran into a tricky, tricky ambush on my part, lost a bunch of sacreds, and was on the defensive after that. I like to believe he hit the ambush due to overconfidence after stomping on both Mictlan and Tien Chi so early in the game. Ashdod had wrecked his 4 neighbors to varying degrees, so with him on the defensive it left 80+ provinces that were defended only by indies, PD, and AI. I moved through those as quickly as I could, while trying to research spells to break into Ashdod's fortified castles.

It was around this time that people started to notice a problem. Fortunately, Man was still dealing with Ashdod and then Arco marauders, Arco and Bandar Log were still looking to settle scores, and Jotunheim proved no match for the Rishi armies. So aside from the threatening armies of Marignon and an incursion by Machaka's Colossal Fetish, our expansion went unopposed until the end. I'd sum it up with a Simone Weil quote which is the basis of my MP strategy: "Oppression that is clearly inexorable and invincible does not give rise to revolt but to submission."

A few other misc notes:
- Pelthin, please build at least a point of PD. 10 provinces with no PD will tempt even the most loyal allies.

- Ashdod is very, very powerful. I had a difficult time with them even when they were outnumbered and did not have spells; I can't imagine winning against a strong, well played late game Ashdod that can back their troops up with Earthquakes and the like.

[DonCorazon]

Good game Admiral. It was sad to have such a research lead and not be able to capitalize on it. Did BoT do much to you? I had the Chalice and a source of blood for Boots of Youth so thought I could ward off some of the ill effects. But once Bandar surrendered to you, there wasn't much I could do without violating the NAP which is why I was willing to throw in the towel. I had hoped to fight long enough for your mages and troops to start keeling over and was building labs with that golem to gate in troops in some random spots once our NAP expired...

Anyway, my lessons for this game:
1. Don't play on non-wraparound maps
2. Don't sign a NAP longer than 5 turns
3. Don't piss off the monkeys

[cleveland]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

2. Don't sign a NAP longer than 5 turns

When I think back on how many glorious wars Machaka could have been embroiled in, I'm going to learn this lesson as "Don't sign a NAP ever." Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lord Obamono.

ps - BillyWitchDoctor.com takes the top spot in the Hall of Fame! With an aesthetically pleasing 2^8 kills!

[Quitti]

Heh, I should've attacked Shin the second I got a border with them. Even refused to sign a NAP with them to keep opportunities open - but unfortunately I was on my way to start a war with Jotunheim - should've paid more attention to graphs at that point. I never even did get the chance to break the NAP with Jotunheim - I was still building army for that moment, and getting holy pyre (and other evocations) researched in case their master lich would've provided some nasty skeletal surprises. And then came BoT, which really hurt us - all mages of ma marig are old age (except for f1 nonsacred somewhat useless ones). Actually I think I had only one commander without afflictions in the force I was gathering to shin's border (After giving up on the Jotunheim part and seeing that shin was such a threat).

It really sounds like you had the ultimate starting position - 5 out of 6 with 10k pop is insane. It would provide the fuel for the rest of the game. All I had was some random forests :/

[Zapmeister]

Originally Posted by cleveland

When I think back on how many glorious wars Machaka could have been embroiled in, I'm going to learn this lesson as "Don't sign a NAP ever." Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lord Obamono.

First up, congratulations to the Admiral and thanks to Juffos for running the game, but I'd also like to comment on this NAP business.

I'm not going to admit my age here, but suffice it to say that I cut my MP teeth on a boardgame called Diplomacy shortly after it was invented, in which agreements between players was the central theme.

The thing is, everyone understood that treaties and the like, while being essential tools for sorting out your friends from your enemies and arranging short-term operations, were never regarded as binding.

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

This is not a whine just an observation about the evolution of diplomacy in multiplayer games. While I acknowledge that others see it differently, I do still believe that trying to make treaties binding in a game does not improve the game.

I actually regard myself as a reliable ally. In-game relationships built up through a history of co-operation are the most valuable, I think, and I try to build a lot of them. I just hate it when people ask for certainty. I always want the option to stab, even if I rarely use it.

Just my 2c,
Zap.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

Those are the ones I enjoy backstabbing the most

Jazzepi

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

And that's exactly the reason why Discharge (another MP game) has "machiavellian" diplomacies - like real world. Breaking a treaty might benefit you, forging a solid trust can benefit you even more. It all depends. Just keep in mind, it's said in llamaserver faq about starting a game:

Now, this first post needs to include all the details of the game:
...
- Diplomacy policy (are treaties considered unbreakable, or is this a Machiavellian world?)

I usually consider it a machiavellian game if it's not stated that it's not. I suggest everyone do the same. If something is not EXPLICTLY forbidden, it must be allowed. There's no gray area between them in this case.

[archaeolept]

excessive NAPage has become a real problem, IMO. If I were starting a game, I would put a limit on the number of turns a legitimate NAP could be.

Also, it is absurd to believe that NAP's can't be broken under force majeure. If someone is going to win (as in this case), NAPs are vitiated.

[DonCorazon]

Well, there were a lot of problems in this game, and violating a NAP wasn't going to do much to fix it. I view it as my responsibility not to enter into a NAP if I can't deal with the consequences.

My strong preference would be to play games with either NO diplomacy like RAND or ones where NAPs are explicitly unenforceable and in fact encouraged to be broken. I am kind of sick of the whole, NAP with 2 of my 3 neighbors and attack the 3rd strategy. So much of the game then just comes down to geography.