SEV DEMO IS OUT!

[Captain Kwok]

But we are also going to see lists that scroll on forever with dozens of the same sort of traits at different levels...

A good compromised would have been like a 5-point scale for most aptitudes, and then a separated page for selecting unique racial traits for technology or special skills.

[arthurtuxedo]

Such lists as you describe would be an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole, to "sliderize" the new system, which I feel is a mistake. There should be only two or three options at most for each area, and certainly more than +/- 5%. If you have +10%, +25%, and +50%, I think that pretty well covers the field. No need for +15%, +20%, etc.

[Captain Kwok]

I agree, that's why I said a 5-point scale would be best (ie poor > excellent, increments of 10% actual effect?) for presentation.

In your example, take the 10 or so typical aptitudes and add 6 traits for each one and all of a sudden you have 60 traits that would take up many "pages" worth of the traits screen. Yuck. It's already bad enough with the 30 or so actual traits that exist now.

[Fyron]

arthurtuxedo said:
All the sliders did was make it very difficult to properly balance...

Huh? It is pretty easy to balance them out... many existing mods do so. PvK Balance mod for a stock tech tree, Adamant, CB, etc., etc.

but we are almost definitely going to see more balanced mods as a result of the new approach.

We have a bunch of well balanced mods for SE4 already. The lack of "sliders" will contribute zilch to "more balanced mods" in the racial setup department.

"Sliders" are great because they are compact. You don't need 8 separate entries to get a good range (eg: -20 to +20 in increments of 5) to accomplish this. MOO2 managed to have a race design screen that put a bunch of options in little space; SE5 fails at this miserably.

[arthurtuxedo]

Some SE4 mods are well balanced, but the majority aren't. It's easier to visualize balance for people who aren't great at it when you have a smaller range of options to consider. That's why I feel it will contribute to more balanced mods. Obviously, if you're Malfador and your idea of balance is this, then it still won't be balanced, but modders who are better at balance than MM, but still suck will be helped.

[Suicide Junkie]

Dragging the well-balanced mods down to make the rest look better isn't an improvement.

[arthurtuxedo]

Well, I suppose we're arguing tastes and preferences now. I also prefer oranges to apples, and anyone who disagrees is flat out wrong

[Suicide Junkie]

You can't ban eggs to prevent kids from throwing them at your house without also preventing yourself from baking a cake.

[Fyron]

More balanced mods as in, mods that are more balanced, or the quantity of mods with balanced trait costs will be larger? I think we may be reading it with opposing meanings of "more."

Really, it's a trivial thing to include PvK Balance Mod in your SE4 mod. Any modder that does not either does not know of it or is just lazy.

Ideally, Aaron should have just made the stock costs balanced in both games. But alas...

[Suicide Junkie]

The third option is that they have done the work themselves to find a good balance with their own mod's underlying physics.