Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Zeldor]

I agree with Squirrelloid - you should learn more about Dominions and multiplayer

Right now EVERYONE that wants to win a game pretty much needs tarts. Both as SCs and spellcasters. You lost the race to Chalice? You can get GoH. This makes 2 nations with healthy tarts. You can't get that too? You wish for Chalice. You can't? Well, you are probably going to lose the game anyway, if you are losing in every category. Or try to borrow it.

And yes, the goal is to give pretty much every path alternative to tarts. So every nation can play differently. Right know EVERYONE must have death. There is still same problem with S [and I hope mind hunts get more expensive].

Roc is more fragile than Gate Cleaver on good guy. And gate cleaver is really good weapon to carry.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I might be prone to slight exaggeration.

I dunno, Rocs felt like they were supposed to be more than mobile wall breakers. I suppose at 15-18a I *might* summon them for that. The thing about wall shakers is they also cast panic - something that you can use to make indie commanders more useful. So I'd probably rate a Roc about the same.

For conj6 and A4 it seems pretty weak though.

Can't say I've noticed

A2 can still cast confusion, thunder ward, gift of flight, false fetters, thunderstrike, shockwave, wind guide, arrow fend, or summon air elementals at a2. Yes, you need an a4 to start, but it'll help tide you over until you can summon Asynjas having an air caster available relatively early in the game. Of course Asynja don't even have guaranteed A3 either. Anyway, many of those spells seem a lot more useful to me than the ability to cast panic. Granted, shishi can also cast all of the same spells, and are cheaper, as well as being better thugs... I would rather have shishis myself, but a Roc seems a much better deal than wall shakers to me.


Edit: Zeldor - I hate gate cleavers, they take earth and earth is much too necessary for other forging when you would consider summoning rocs.

[llamabeast]

Lots to say, but just time for a brief comment.

Firstly, I agree that Rocs as they stand have become overpriced. Perhaps 18 gems. Also I am inclined to bring Krakens down one research level.

No one seems to have commented on the fact that Rocs can be brought up to A4 with two air boosters. Obviously this is expensive, but it is still a way of using an A4 pretender to gain a new Fog Warriors caster, without waiting for Asynjas. Shishis can't do this (no head slot).

In the same way as the suggestion of giving a Roc A2 + 25%A basically makes the A3 more expensive, you could also imagine that you have a choice: either get an A2 Roc for, say, 18 gems, or get an A3 Roc (Roc + Bag of Winds / Winged Helmet) for 35 gems. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Of course a Roc with a single booster (or a Shishi with a booster) could cast Fog Warriors after waiting to cast Summon Storm Power. Said 35 gem Roc is then an astonishingly mobile support caster - with mapmove 5, flying and the ability to cloud trapeze it's probably the most mobile caster in the game. I'm sure it could be pretty handy.

So I have already opened up Air considerably, by including summonable A2 mages. I guess there's no way round that really.

I am a bit disinclined to go for the 25% A3 option as some people have commented that they find randoms on summons a bit annoying / hard to remember. I still have some (most notably the Asynja and the Treant), but I have tried to cut down on them a bit.

One final comment is that I see the Roc being a bit of a niche summon. I can't really see a way around that, and I don't really mind. It's good to include a few obviously good summons (Ember Lords, Grendelkin probably), as well as some more niche ones (Roc, Firebird most obviously).

[Sajuuk]

some people have commented that they find randoms on summons a bit annoying / hard to remember. I still have some (most notably the Asynja and the Treant), but I have tried to cut down on them a bit.

hooray, hail to llama! Treant will be more powerful with N2E1 or N2W1, rooted for N3E2 or N3W2, they can buff themselves with some very useful spells. High N access? Leave it to tree lords

But why not give treant Encumbrance 0? For all other flora creature, treelord, vineman or ivy king, they all have Encumbrance 0.....


To Zeldor: You don't get me, I never say it's unnecessary to get tarts, just "some nation have innate disadvantage in getting tarts", either because they need double bless or because they need sc pretender for early survive. Also, with only pretender have s or d or n path, gem income can be a terrible disadvantage, not to mention how "random" whether you can get grail. Yes, tarts are essential for victory, but not fair to every nation, and I just don't like to choose a nation just because it is much easier to win.

By the way, I have played multiplayer for almost three years, not very long, but not a newbie, either, though because of my strange interest in weak nations like ea/ma atlantis or agartha, I only win once, which I didn't use weak nation

But I have to add a annotation that, though I did wish grail later, I didn't depend on tart to access to new path or multiple SC—— much harder, but possible.

[Squirrelloid]

Sajuuk: A4 pretenders? Pretty rare. Kailasa *might* use one (although I wouldnt). Air is a crappy bless. I would hazard a guess that A9 is more common than A4, because some nations can do cute things with the shock resistance. (MA Mictlan comes to mind).

And the point sort of is to make it unnecessary to get tarts.

[Zeldor]

Sajuuk:

See, that's why you rearely win Nations are not balanced. And all must get to tarts pretty much in normal games. Idea behind this mod is to give weaker and non-D non-S nations better fighting chances. And to make it not necessary to rush for tarts and build whole strategies around them. I had over 100 tarts in two of my games. I am sick of that. But I like winning, so I will summon them again, if I have to.

Squirrelloid:

I think that A4 is not so bad thing. It's another thing that pretty much every nation should get. Air boosters, Staff of Storms is quite crucial for some. Of course it's behind getting tarts, good bless, S access...

[Squirrelloid]

I agree A4 has some decent stuff. But its so far down the priority list... I generally opt for nature access and summoning a faerie queen, or just winning the tart lottery (A3 is enough to get started with a RoS).

[Sajuuk]

Zeldor：

Everyone like to win, including me I just don't like to win through spam something, should it be tarts or gem generator like clam or blood stone, and that's why I love the possibility given by this mod. But it might still lead to spam, just change from spam one thing to many things, and I still can't win. Well, then so be it, the pleasure of winning is no match to the pain it takes

Squirrelloid:

A4 is not a universal choice for pretender, just for some specified purpose, such as "there's A2 mage only cost 5A", or maybe you know that you are going to fight plenty of air nation or archery nation early in the game, maybe plus you can tolerate the points from A3 to A4. 20% air shield are almost totally useless, though.

[Squirrelloid]

Sajuuk: Most pretenders won't have air at all. Its a bad path for a pretender. Those pretenders who do have air will generally have just enough for SCing (A2 for mistform) or will be a bless chassis with A9 for some specialized use.

The only time I could see taking A4 on a pretender is if you had an air nation that didn't get native A4 casters with any regularity. I honestly can't name one off the top of my head...

[Graeme Dice]

Pythium and Midgard are probably the best examples.