WinSP MBT: Das Reich

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It is fairly well known now that the German Naval High Command opposed Sea Lion almost from the beginning, the Battle of Britain sealed the fate of that operation. Hitler as we know would draw his attention back to Russia as he saw the Soviet Socialists system as a bigger threat not only to himself but the world. He did after all saw himself as a "crusader" at times. Also it should be noted that almost to the mid/or end of the WWII he still thought some accommodation could be made with England.

I believe to get a better picture of Churchill, mood of the English and military status and issues I would highly recommend reading William Manchester's (w/Paul Reid who Manchester personally chose to finish Vol. III) Vol. II The Last Lion/Alone, 1932-1940 Pub. 1988 and Vol. III The Last Lion/Defender Of The Realm, 1940-1965 Pub. 2012 (Which greatly benefited from the release of classified documents from all the major powers involved starting from 1995 on.), you would be hard pressed to find a better all round references. I personally found them very insightful and feel he was the best (Unfortunately in part also in his uncanny way of predicting future events leading well into The Cold War.) of the "Big Four" he wasn't perfect but, he was better than good. It's worth noting his bust was and is again the only foreign leader to be honored and held in the White House to my limited knowledge.

Regards,
Pat


Regards,

[IronDuke99]

A good deal of the Royal Australian and Royal New Zealand navies were actually not in their home waters in 1939-40, but supporting the RN in the Med and Atlantic, etc. Canadian troops were also in UK.

the lower losses of the JU87's were purely because they suffered such heavy losses in their early operations against Britain, that the German Air Force had to totally withdraw them from operations over and close to UK.

Also worth bearing in mind that the German Air Force in 1939-40, in common with most other air forces, was actually not all that good at sinking enemy warships that early in the war.(although they improved later on).

I am not all that convinced that Edward VIII was really all that pro German and, in any case, even in 1940 the views of a British King, were hardly all that important in political as opposed to propaganda terms.

Yes a UK without Churchill might, maybe, have made peace with Germany after the fall of France, if the German terms had been generous enough (ie, no loss of territory, no German troops on any British territory at home or overseas, no concessions to Italy, full exchange of prisoners, etc). However even such a peace would have seen UK continue to re-arm and, perhaps to Britain's advantage, might have enabled this to happen without British bankruptcy by 1942...

[Suhiir]

It's been widely rumored (or is it now confirmed?) that's why Rudolf Hess flew to Scotland and was the sole prisoner in Spandau after 1966 till his death in 1987.
The possibility of a separate peace between Britain and Germany in mid-1941.

[MarkSheppard]

Bah, here's something to fill in a hole in your OOB: the Ju-252/352.

Hacked together from the SPCAMO MBT DC-4/C-54 generic silv/white (Icon2785) in about 45 minutes and some comparing Ju-52 to Ju 252 drawings.

Why so important:

Ju-52: About 10.2m2 floor space and 18.5m3 volume and about 2 tonnes of payload to a range of 650 miles at a cruising speed of about 120-130 MPH.

Ju-252: About 22m2 floor space and 38m3 volume and about 7 tonnes of payload to range of 2,400 miles at a cruising speed of about 220+ MPH.

The 252 is roughly comparable to the C-46 Commando basically.

Bah, some parts don't look right. Oh well, version 2.0 tomorrow.

[IronDuke99]

I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.

If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.

In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.

Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.

Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.

Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.

What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.

Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.

Still food for thought I hope...

[IronDuke99]

To try to understand WWII you have to know that in 1939:

Hitler was in some respects not very bright, including his moronic hatred of Jewish people.

Italy and Japan, generally, sensibly, did not share Hitler's views on Jewish people.

In the 1930's the USA and the British Empire mainly saw themselves as trade rivals. The USA had a war plan against Canada and the British Empire that was updated into the 1930's.

Winston Churchill had an American mother he was very, very, fond of that gave his, always very emotional, view of the world a pro-American bias that most of us thinking British folks, thought/think was a little bit excessive...

Prior to 1939 Stalin in the USSR had killed vastly more civilians than Germany. By 1944/45 Roosevelt said he trusted Stalin more than Churchill and acted on it. We all know what that led to...

[IronDuke99]

Had I been in Churchill's position when Hitler invaded Russia, I would not have risked one single British ship or sent Stalin as much as a second hand pair of British Army boots while British forces in the Far East (Malaya and Burma) lacked tanks and modern aircraft.

In the event the vast amount of British and American military aid sent to Russia that cost the western allies -mainly UK- dear in warships and merchant ships, did very little to stop the German onslaught into the then USSR IN 1941-43, but did allow Stalin's forces, by giving them transport, to romp into Europe in 1944-45.

A book I recommend is "The Last Thousand Days of the British Empire" by Peter Clarke (2008). I do not agree with all of it, but it makes a lot of very good points from a British point of view.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.

As stated earlier it was primarily economic.

After the Spanish-American War in 1898 the US had a few overseas holdings and while there was no chance of building a "British Empire" they could, and did, compete economically, and China was a pretty significant market. The USA became seriously involved in global trade post WW I (why the US Navy expanded so much between WW I and WW II).

[MarkSheppard]

Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"

So a little graphics for RecruitMonty, then back to our arguing

Version 2.0 of Ju-252, with:

1.) Generic Silver Scheme.
2.) Lufthansa Scheme (Black Bands)
3.) All White Winter Scheme.
4.) Green Camouflage Summer Scheme.
5.) All Tan Desert Camouflage.

You'll note that the civilian graphics don't have a top turret.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm just a "straight up" baseline game player, though this mod has intrigued me over the years. That being said, does this mod have and build onto the ARADO 234 BLITZ? The 234B-2 being the definitive operational model to see combat before the wars end. it was classified as a single seat reconnaissance bomber and would have been operational around Sep/Oct 1944 with 214 total models built.

Some quick facts: Powerplant: 2 Junkers Jumo 109-004B-1 Orkan (Hurricane) turbojets. Speed: 461mph@19,685ft./438mph@sea level. Armament: 2 Defensive aft firing fuselage mounted 15.1mm MG 151 or 20mm MG151/20 cannons with 250/200 rounds per gun respectively. Offensive bomb load 2,204lbs/3,307lbs with rocket assist "drop" motors. Range: based on previous corresponding bomb loads 1,013 miles/684 miles. It had a high ceiling and was a very advanced plane to include a fully functional pilot ejection seat system. If needed or wanted I have all the rest of the specs as well. It's just you never hear about this one because it wasn't as "exciting" as the Me-163 KOMET (COMET) or the Me-262 SCHWALBE (SWALLOW).

Let me know in the meantime I think I'll check into something elsewhere.

Regards,
Pat


It's more fun with Pics: