Crossbows vs. Longbows

[Squirrelloid]

honeybadger, i don't know where you're getting your information, but so much of it is flat out wrong that i don't know where to start.

Example: your figures for speed and power of an arbalest come from an uncited assertion on wikipedia. In particular, i highly doubt the 2/min rate of *accurate* fire listed. You might be able to winch and fire 2/min without aiming at all. But those 5k lbs of force have to be cranked into the arbalest by the operator, and that takes time. (You don't get anything out that you don't put in). And there is open scepticism of 5k lbs of force as an accurate number on the talk page. (Indeed, the page is basically uncited since one of the two citations has absolutely nothing to do with any material actually on the page, and the other may or may not, but without being specifically referenced to a statement there's no way to know).

I will point out that it was firearms which forced the increasing thickness of combat armor in the late medieval period until armored knights became completely untenable.

I will point out that the french used crossbows/arbalests (there's no difference in medieval useage) because they were afraid to let peasants train with longbows, and thus their peasants *couldn't* use longbows in any military capacity. (the english, otoh, required peasants to train with the bow for most of the medieval period, and thus had a corp of highly trained bowmen available).

And by the time there were steel-bowed crossbows (c. 14th century), the cannon had already become state-of-the-art in medieval siege warfare.

And by the time you have either matchlocks or wheellocks, crossbows were museum pieces at best.

[HoneyBadger]

It was a Wikipedia reference (I like it because it's easy for everyone online to follow, much more easily referenced than a lot of out of print texts, and while it may not be perfectly accurate, it's accurate enough for a game), but I'd like to point out that I actually own a crossbow, that I'm very familiar with their use, and traditional construction-including the steel versions-
that I've spent over 3 decades studying the history of arms and armour, and that I grew up around such. My father professionally appraised swords for auction-houses, for years, and my family has an extensive collection of books on the subject, and on medieval weaponry, in general.

You're welcome to argue the point, but 2 accurate shots a minute is quite doable, even with a heavy crossbow, using a common windlass, provided you have enough upper body strength, and training.
30 seconds may not seem like much, but it becomes quite a lot of time, when someone's threatening your family with an axe.

[MachingunJoeTurbo]

I've probably forgotten and remembered Dominions 3 more than any game ever. Since Elemental War of Magic seems to be a bust so far I've been looking back at the Dom and was surprised that I actually had an account, the topic was still here and on top, and people have over the months finally understood the things I was talking about once they got over their butthurt.

[Eximius Sus]

I was trying to figure out what you were talking about and here it is.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...4&postcount=53

Glad you are back to provide clarity on this issue. It's clearly muddled up with fanciful dreams and a lack of reality.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by MachingunJoeTurbo

I've probably forgotten and remembered Dominions 3 more than any game ever. Since Elemental War of Magic seems to be a bust so far I've been looking back at the Dom and was surprised that I actually had an account, the topic was still here and on top, and people have over the months finally understood the things I was talking about once they got over their butthurt.

Although the topic had faded into obscurity for quite some time, until one forum troll revived it to embarrass poor lingchih. Sigh.

[MachingunJoeTurbo]

How is it embarrassing? This is a wonderful thread. Afterall, I posted in it.

Also it probably brought in at least few extra customers because it shows up on the front page of google when you search the topic title.

[Eximius Sus]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Although the topic had faded into obscurity for quite some time, until one forum troll revived it to embarrass poor lingchih. Sigh.

Troll in the dungeon!

[Fantomen]

Oh so glad you are back, we missed your unequaled insight in the world of aerodynamics!

[HoneyBadger]

The modern use of the word "arbalest" tends to denote a steel crossbow, and is useful as such. The medieval word was indeed interchangeable.

Squirreloid: Since you find fault with my references, what exact are yours? How can a crossbow be considered a "museum piece" when they're still being manufactured today? And if armour was being thickened only to protect against bullets, why were crossbows disavowed due to their ability to kill armoured knights, in the first place?

Here are a list of non-Wikipedia references:

Crossbows were banned by the church in 1139AD. http://www.castles-of-britain.com/castle36.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...44231/crossbow
Does anyone wish to argue that the influence of the Church was unimportant and easily disregarded, in medieval Europe?

The arquebus (a very primitive handgun) was first used in Europe circa AD1450+ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arquebus http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...5834/harquebus
and it was compared directly to the crossbow.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...44231/crossbow "The crossbow was the leading missle weapon of the middle ages". That's a direct quote from the online Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Cannons were used in warfare before that point, ofcourse, but it's ridiculous to imagine an army made up of only cannons, even modern cannon in modern times (armies aren't even made up entirely of mobile armor tanks).

Pike and shot tactics were employed as early as 1503, and it was a combination of arms that granted it's success (pike, cannon, and firearms--which include the English longbow)
http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/...ry/tactics.htm
This success continued through the 30 Years War, past the mid 1800s, and it was even suggested as late as the American Civil War, that Confederate regiments include 2 companies of pike, a plan supported by Rober E. Lee.

However, the Swiss were already using similar tactics, as early as 1315, utilizing the crossbow. "If the worst occurred and an isolated column was caught in the open, the troops could always form a square or hedgehog, facing outward in all directions while keeping up a steady fire from their crossbows and relying on their pikes to keep the opposing horse at a respectful distance until help arrived."

Plate armour, as used by the classical knight, was still being perfected (not thickened) in the 16th century (Maximillian-style gothic plate).

http://stormshock.com/archive/articles/development.html
"German full plate armor in the sixteenth century represented the height of personal body armor in all of human history. This armor was called Maximilian armor and it was nearly impenetrable by all hand-powered weapons at the time. Even arrows and crossbow bolts were known to bounce off of such armor harmlessly. Furthermore, Maximilian armor distributed weight evenly throughout the body allowing freedom of movement and jogging."

Clearly, gunpowder didn't immediately render plate obsolete upon it's arrival.

http://stormshock.com/archive/articles/development.html
"Battles such as the massacre at Wisby or the battle of Poitiers pointed out the vulnerabilities of many types of armor to arrows and crossbow bolts."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/froissart1.html
The battle of Crecy, where thousands of crossbows were used by the winning side, occurred in 1346.

The battle of Agincourt (very famously won by longbow-using English) occurred circa 1415, and included crossbows on both sides. These were the more primitive, less effective, wood and horn bows, but the Genoise using them were still the most orderly of the French forces, until devastated by longbow fire.

The last major battle of the 100 years war was at Castillon (1453), where thousands of crossbows were used alongside gunpowder weapons, including cannon.

Gunpowder had been manufactured in the Tower of London, in the early 1300's.

http://www.royalgunpowdermills.com/wargm_chronology.htm

All of which would indicate that crossbows were quite common on the battlefield, for well over 100 years after gunpowder was common in Britain, Europe, and the Middle East. Certainly not by the 14th century (1300's).

And the Longbow may not have been used much in France, but the Germans and Scandinavians had no such restriction. http://www.teamultimedia.com/HRMH/Hi...20Longbow.html The Swiss legend of William Tell (an expert crossbowman) should be enough to indicate the popularity of the crossbow in that region.
http://www.amazon.com/Crossbows-Roya.../dp/9059721748

I couldn't find any direct references, but I've read and heard of a lot of theories and suggestions that heavy crossbows were employed in teams, with one team member firing, while the other reloaded the bow, and perhaps maintained a large pavaise. This makes a certain amount of sense, particularly in a seige, and would easily account for the 2 shots per minute, and more easily account for the use of a very powerful "seige" type hand crossbow.

Crossbows were even employed in WW2, by Austalian commandoes, and by U.S. special forces in Vietnam.
http://www.extremely-sharp.com/es/learn/aimcross.html
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Milita...iew&id=3877948

So clearly, there's no issue of them having become mere "museum pieces", even in modern times.

[Eximius Sus]

A seige arbalest could be fired accurately, by a single soldier with modest training, at up to 900 meters, every 30 seconds, and deliver 5000 pounds of force

I can't find anything in your above list of reference to back up this claim from your earlier post.

And of course, 5000 lbs draw weight does not deliver 5000 lbs of force at the target. It imparts a certain kinetic energy to the bolt depending on draw distance (work = force x distance). The weight and resulting muzzle velocity of the bolt is a more useful comparison.