Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Executor]

Well, I still don't like Ashdod in a game. I don't have a problem with their base troops or mages or sacreds but I do object to Adons.

I wouldn't mind playing against Ashdod if they lost Adons. For that matter, I don't think Ashdod can ever be balanced.
IMO, they are the best recruitable unit in the game and quite overpowered. They are much better than both Neif and Fomorian giants for many reasons.

-They have better base paths for gear (as a nation). E/F/S are the most common forging paths. The Jarl have a problem with MR and they have no good buff spells like Adons. Kings have better buffs but still not as good as Adons on the count of diversity, and they also have a MR problem and protection too.
-There is more diversity on Adons than Jarls and Kings, (F/S/E). Phoenix Pyre Adon, Teleporting/Lucky/Ethereal/Astral Shield/High MR Adon, and a Tank like earth Invonerable/High MR/Reinvigorating Adon.
And than there is the extra misc slot. And that additional misc slot is not a minor thing as it opens up quite a few more options. Luck Pendant/AMA/Girdle/Braces of Protection/Burning Pearl depending on which Adon you get. And if you really want to get crazy communion the Adons or forge the communions and cast a dozen buffs and make them literally unstoppable.

So, IMO, other than removing Adons Ashdod will never be balanced.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Executor

And than there is the extra misc slot. And that additional misc slot is not a minor thing as it opens up quite a few more options.

The thing that amuses me about Hinnom/Ashdod are the small touches. Like the three misc slots on Adons you mentioned. And unlike most units where getting an extra slot of one type means you lack another type, Adons just get the extra one. Or Hinnom having recruitable healers - because they wouldn't be playable without having Arco-style risk free mindhunts on their recruit everywhere S2s.

Having said that, reducing anakite armor to enc. 2 seems reasonable since it's mainly a troop buff. Presumably you'll put better, lower enc., armor on your SCs at first opportunity anyway.

Buffing zamzummites I'm more wary of. Boosting their spellcasting ability without a corresponding nerf in their thuggability is a net gain for Ashdod and I just can't see this as a weak nation that needs a buff.

Originally Posted by Ragnarok-X

Since we cant alter the consciousness of the community...

Sure you can. How many people still think MA Ulm is weak? I don't think settling for a nation being OP is the way to go and will as often as not just result in them being banned. If you like a nation it's in your interest that it be perceived as balanced and allowed in games.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Executor

So, IMO, other than removing Adons Ashdod will never be balanced.

Adonim were overpowered because with an E10N4 bless, they were SCs from turn 2 when few have counters. (though heavy cavalry and elephants can still do quite a number on them)

Simply making that impossible, which bumping base encumbrance up to 3 already does, makes Adonim no more overpowered than Gath's Kohen Gadols, which are pretty much just unequipped Adonim, but with more magic and no research malus. Fully equipped, Adonim have the advantage of one more miscellaneous slot (meaning more expensive to outfit), but with hp on the low side.

I mean really, by your argument, Yomi must be the most ridiculously overpowered nation ever. Phoenix Pyre, Soul Vortex, and earth buffs on one commander, and no astral to be magic dueled unlike 1/3 of Adonim.

Originally Posted by Valerius

Buffing zamzummites I'm more wary of. Boosting their spellcasting ability without a corresponding nerf in their thuggability is a net gain for Ashdod and I just can't see this as a weak nation that needs a buff.

It certainly doesn't make a damn bit of sense to nerf their spellcasting instead of their thuggability as CBM did. In any case, I'm not really convinced their thuggability is even that big of an issue. Unless you are playing in some crazy rich setting or some ridiculously big map, the bottleneck will always be equipment, not thug chasis. And if you are playing in super big maps with super rich settings, that's ridiculously unbalancing to everything, and not something CBM should specifically be catering to.

[Executor]

Really? More slots is worse since you spend extra gems?

Adons still are SC from turn 1. The change of 1 enc doesn't alter that. Saying that is just silly. You can still expand perfectly with them though if you happen to see a heavy cavalry province or one with a lot of stuff in it god forbid you'll have to use something other than an Adon to take it, that is, before you manage to get a girdle of might on turn 15 and have zero enc again... In the meantime you just may have to use regular troops.
I don't get why people are obsessed with zero enc. You don't need zero enc to use Adons, or their regular sacreds for that matter. With E10 they will have enc 2 which is perfectly acceptable.
Research malus? What now? Who in their right mind would keep Adons in a fort researching anyway?

I don't see how having teleporting Adons are a problem for that matter either.

Kohen Gadols are not as dangerous simply because they are unequipped Adons, with more or less the same stats. And they don't really have more magic until you hit blood 9 or want to use a communion a bit more effectively though not efficiently.
The thing is, Kohen Gadols need quite a few more items than Adons. Their do have a better base enc by 1 but their armor sucks, their weapon is terrible and they don't have an extra gore attack. They also have slightly worse stats, lower attack, defense and protection. And the HP difference, that's 2 HP.

[Shangrila00]

Did you read what I actually wrote? Extra slot is an advantage. Low hp is a disadvantage. And have you actually tested? I did, when this debate came up. Adons cannot reliably expand against dual dagger tribals and barbarians as well as heavy cavalry and elephants. Larger numbers (less than the 50 you could buy with the cost of an Adon) of heavy infantry will also kill them with fatigue. Honestly, I don't even mind that, though Jarls certainly would never have that problem. Nor do I mind the research malus, though you're being purposefully obtuse if you don't see a disadvantage in your cap not producing any RP. (I guess Ermor's longdead horse are free too)

The point is this. The fact that Adons are equipped is an advantage only in the early game, and by that, I mean before Ashdod even gets minimal reinvig gear at construction 2. Once they can be fatigued out by the same cost in heavy infantry, much less dedicated attempts with markata or more suitable chaff in that period, calling them overpowered (or SCs from turn 1) is absurd. Armor of Achilles is Alt2, Lightning Bolt and Rust Mist are Evo2. Adons without replacement armor and shield are mere thugs, since a single mage casting whichever one of the above you have paths for (and the E1 requirement for AoA is hardly hard to reach) and PD will kill Adons with just minimal reinvig gear. If you don't give them a brand, they'll go down to Swarm too, and without a Golden Shield, elephants and heavy cavalry will still kill them. Fully equipped Adons are good SCs, no question there, but they are no better than a fully equipped Kohen Gadol. And people will laugh at you if you claim Gath can never be balanced unless Kohen Gadols are removed.

[Memento]

Hi.

Can we potentially add 25% blood on mictlan priests? Currently, with the elimination of SDR and tlahuepulchi cost increase, the only effective way to blood hunt as mictlan is to use their cap only mages - and since Mictlan is all about blood it seems to be pretty ineffective.
Just my 2 cents

[Executor]

Shangrila00, I was being sarcastic since you were being cute. I have no taste for pointless arguing.

Yes, I did actually test it, and I've had the misfortune of playing against Ashdod several times so far, both now and pre-nerf, and pre pre-nerf, so I'm not blowing this out of my ars.
Nothing can reliably expand against anything, IMO at least, and not even Giant commanders. (though dual dagger tribals are probably the best indies out there now )
Though it's no trouble clearing out barbarians and tribe warriors either. You could place an Adon in front, place 20 slingers behind with guard commander on a second commander and there you go.

The fact that Adons are equipped is an advantage only in the early game. It certainly is. So you have an advantage the first 15 ish turns there. And I don't think it's a small advantage.
Yes you can outfatigue them early on with crap troops like markata. But than again why would anyone actually send a lone Adon to his death like that?
Most if not all of the early game where you don't have access to construction is just expansion, and once you actually have to face someone you will probably have some gear to forge and level the encumbrance.

And you know spells have a range problem. All that sounds good in theory but when you place the Adon in the back with self buffs and waiting 5 times the spells are not gonna hit him. Or at least not unless you get sneaky and place your troops on guard commander or something. But I'm not stating that Adons are invinsible, but OP, and much better than Jarls, Fomo Kings, Kohen Gadols and Oni Kings. And I doubt you'd disagree with me here either.

And like I said, Kohen Gadols are not as nasty simply cause you can't use them early on like Adons.

[Shangrila00]

Again, you can fatigue them out with heavy infantry now. And if you've managed to solve the supporting troops routing your SC problem that has been in the game since the beginning, please do share. And without major supporting troops, there are endless ways to counter hiding SC in the back, starting with the attack one turn order. I thought that was what half the game was about, outscripting your opponent?

And no, I don't agree they are better than the other premier recruitable SCs. Ungeared, Jarls are now better. Geared, Kohen Gadols, Fomorian Kings, and Dai Oni all have better access to buffs, as are, for that matter Jarls that can soul vortex.

Honestly, it's pretty clear that Ashdod gave you the bad touch in a few games, and you are now on a crusade of vengence or some such ridiculousness. "Ashdod can never be balanced as long as they have Adons" sounds pretty much exactly like Adons are invincible, and is so overwrought that it's difficult to take seriously. Can you point to Ashdod winning lots of CBM games besides your personal anecdotes of how overpowered they are against you? Certainly, a cursory search of the multiplayer forum suggests quite the opposite.

[GFSnl]

Dai Oni, Jarls and Fom. Kings are much, MUCH better then Adons.

[Executor]

Perhaps you should calm down a bit.

There are endless ways to counter anything in the game, I've never stated othervice so I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Adons are better from start that all their giant opposition, which was the whole point of my argument. It's sort of like why I'm opposed to the ridiculous Agartha PD, near impossible to deal with early on but gets easier as the game progresses, though Adons are not nearly as extreme of course.
Yes some Jarls can get soul vortex mid game (level 6 spell), as can Fomorian Kings, and mistform and mirror image, and other stuff. Dai Oni have the best buffing options. Fact. But by that time you'll have plenty of counter measures.

In my opinion Jarls are nearly as deadly as Adons, nearly. They still have a huge disadvantage when fighting in heat dominion where they are pretty much useless. The other thing where I feel Adons have an advantage is the diversity among Adons. Namely you get teleporting Adons, while Jarl don't really get any buffs from water. Quickness is hard to use. And last, Adons have better low level forging options.
Though I agree fully kitted Jarls can be better, but that's beside the point.

My point is that it is ridiculous that you can get a 36 prot/28 def/ regenerating/ reinvigoration (earth) Adon by the end of year 1. None of the other Giant nations can get anything nearly as good. Astral Adons are even better of course. There are many (as deadly) variants of Adon which you can easily get by turn 15.

Further more, I don't thing that anything is clear to you. What I said was more of a side comment. No I don't expect Adons to really be removed of course, that would be silly. Nor do I have a vendeta or crusade against them as I would have probably mentioned this sooner. I was just trying to state that they can't be balanced, which they bloody well can't. The problem was never in their sacreds or mages, at least for me. And uping enc by 1 doesn't make them any less deadly or useful suddenly.

As for actual wins. They don't count for anything. Everyone knows Ashdod always gets ganged upon. You rarely see any vets take Ashdod since they know they'd be doomed from the get go. And for example, EA Mictlan, which everyone can agree is an awesome nation, had lesser wins than MA Oceania or Cealum until relatively recently. So I don't credit the HoF with any sort of useful information of that sort.

Now I'm going to drop this matter because you're, for what ever reason, taking this personally and I have no interest in being dragged into a flame.