Faerun - started

[Boron]

shmonk said:
I have a question about the preferences that will be used - VH Research and 9 indie strength. It seems with those settings, the expansion at the beginning will be very slow, correct? Like what, maybe every 3 turns a new province is taken, or even longer?

I guess I'm still having a hard time getting used to indie strength of 9, at least in my SP. Makes for a slow start. But maybe that's what this game will be about. Slow start, more national armies maybe (because of VH research), and it will be a while before summons can happen.

A SC-Pretender e.g. can probably still take 1 province a turn from turn 2-5 on depending on the chassis.
This SC-Pretender will be expensive though and with the new scales etc. it is not as an easy choice as in vanilla anymore
But the initial Expansion will be a bit slower of course.
The various Mods and settings shall exactly do what you describe: Give more incentives to build national armies

[thejeff]

Boron said:
A SC-Pretender e.g. can probably still take 1 province a turn from turn 2-5 on depending on the chassis.
This SC-Pretender will be expensive though and with the new scales etc. it is not as an easy choice as in vanilla anymore

I haven't mastered SC design yet, obviously. Can you give an example of a SC-Pretender design that can reliably take Strength 9 indies with little to no gear or buffs? Or how you'd get enough gear and/or buffs in the first few turns with VH research?

It's not that I don't believe you. I just want to know how to pull it off. My best attempts at SC-pretenders have waited for Alteration-3 and were still only semi-successful. (Immortals took more risks, but weren't really any more successful)

[YellowCactus]

There are no SC's before turn 10 with VH Research that 'Reliably' take ANY Indi province alone.

However....be very carful about your scales on this one. A VQ with good dominions and 5 paths to 3-4 levels each could fly around picking off 'weak' indies in her dominion. Dragons are good with these mods too. (Red dragon F9 for example) I'd recommend a flying pretender if your going SC.

Best of luck fellows. 17 factions will be BRUTAL!

-yc

[Huzurdaddi]

The Panther said:
Very interesting that, so far, nobody has picked 2 of the 3 strongest nations: Caelum and Pythium! Maybe the mods are the reason? Or maybe because they both start in the middle of the map and the edges are a far better place to be.

Pythium gets kind of Borked in this mod. Thurges more expensive, communicants more expensive, troops slightly more expensive. It's pretty watered down.

As for Caelum it's beyond comprehension but they were improved in this version. At least their primary troop: the archer.

A game with this mod and no hoarding restrictions is going to be interesting that is for sure.

I *really* hope that graphs will be off. Graphs being on simply makes the game more titled to hoarders.

[Alneyan]

I would say a rainbow Pretender (of sorts) with Alteration 3 can take any province with independents before turn 10. Alteration 2 may be used to do it earlier, and some nations might have trouble reaching Alteration 3 before turn 10.

I know my Pretender in Song of the Blade (VH research, independents 9) had no trouble clearing up heavy infantry provinces with Alteration 2, and the knights fell easily with Alteration 3 (I did not risk attacking the knights with Alteration 2, but intelligence reports it would have worked quite well). My Pretender would have suffered against anything flying however, like most Pretenders relying on buffs.

The big problem is the feasibility of getting a nice Pretender: Song of the Blade did not use the Scales mod, making it easier to get more points (without crippling your nation in the process). With the Scales mod, I don't think you can get an SC, a Rainbow mage, high-end magic *and* decent scales.

[Huzurdaddi]

Heck, I've never played Caelum in a PBEM game. I'll take it instead of Marignon.

I *know* marignon is amazing. I've tried them out before. Let's see if Caelum lives up to the hype.

And Panther. You are right I never learn. Actually where I work is *very* quite right now, I've never seen a company this "quiet" so I have some time at this exact moment to play a game. However this may change in a couple of months. We'll see. Let's hope we can resolve this game very quickly!

[Shmonk]

So, is VH research the next one up from Normal/Standard research, or is that Difficult Research and VH is the highest of the Research settings?

And thanks for the info. That's what I was wondering, because it doesn't seem to me that even with an SC Pretender, it will be difficult/risky trying to take a Province a turn in the first 4 or 5 turns, what with no spells other that the default and no equipment. But I can see maybe 2 or 3 provinces by turn 10, or 1 every 3 turns. Even with Alteration 2, which would take what, at least 3 turns to get to, even with the pretender researching?

[The Panther]

My dragon (as Machaka) in the Mad-Orania game took level 9 indies all by himself from Turns 2-7. He lost an eye on Turn 2 and lost the second eye on Turn 7 after taking 6 level 9 provinces. Being blinded, he then retired to help with research. I was really pissed that he didn't get tamer afflictions, like a chest wound or battle fright. Admittedly, I did not attack anything dangerous (meaning heavy cavs or knights). It also took a lot of micro management and testing to position him in the optimum square (which depended on the type of enemy indie) and just how many of his long-range breaths he needed to cast before attacking the rear archers (which mostly depended on the Action Points of the enemy infantry). I also built him a bear claw talisman on the first turn (easy for Machaka to do on that particular map), which helped by increasing his archery range.

Then, starting on turn 4, my prophet army began to take provinces easily. But that was helped by the fact that the each player started with a bunch of pre-built sites plus the income from 5 inital provinces, thus kick-starting my non-dragon battles immensely.

On turn 13, I had a lot more provinces (maybe 21 or so) than anyone else but eventually died because Abysia had a built-in 30% blood bonus site, which terribly unbalanced the game.

I must admit I am wondering how Huzurdaddi can hope for the game to be resolved quickly without a victory condition. The only way I know how to do this is to be eliminated from the game!

[Alneyan]

Panther's way requires using a physical Pretender, but works very well, if you feel like taking a few chances. It works fine from turn 1 onwards, and you can perhaps add a couple of magic items to make your Pretender even more fearsome. The biggest advantage of such Pretenders is their very low price, but they will likely be weaker Pretenders in the long run.

The rainbow/SC combination is another way of taking provinces, and starts around turn 5 or so (depending on how quickly you can reach Alteration 2, with your Pretender having at least 20 research points). Even Alteration 2 allows you to do some damage, with spells like Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Personal Luck and the like. Some Pretenders will likely have no trouble taking weak provinces with this setup. Alteration 3 allows to breathe more easily, and can be reached around turn 8: then, most provinces should fall easily to your Pretender. Once you have done your basic research, a province per turn can be taken with your Pretender.

Other setups not relying on a SC Pretender can work well: for example, in another independent 9/Very Hard research game, I went with a bless strategy and started taking provinces on turn 3, if memory serves. This specific example involved Arcoscephale, a Fire-9 Moloch, and a holy-4 Priestess Prophet: ten Heart Companions did very well against most provinces, backed with Fanatism and the Moloch Fire Darts (a great spell when cast by a Fire-9 mage). Weak provinces fell without a loss, while tough provinces (knights) could still be taken with only two or three companions killed. This setup is fairly cheap, and allows for decent scales; it does not give much else besides fast expansion, however.

And you can still do something with regular troops, I think, but I am no expert on national units (I mostly use projectile units these days, with some infantry once in a while, and cavalry once in a blue moon).

Very hard research is the hardest research: researching level X under very hard research is equivalent to researching level X+2 in standard research. For the sake of completeness, level X in very hard research is equivalent to level X+1 in hard research, or level X-1 in easy research. So, for 60 research points, you can go from:
- 0 to 1 in very hard research
- 1 to 2 in hard research
- 2 to 3 in standard research
- 3 to 4 in easy research

[The Panther]

shmonk said:
So, is VH research the next one up from Normal/Standard research, or is that Difficult Research and VH is the highest of the Research settings?

And thanks for the info. That's what I was wondering, because it doesn't seem to me that even with an SC Pretender, it will be difficult/risky trying to take a Province a turn in the first 4 or 5 turns, what with no spells other that the default and no equipment. But I can see maybe 2 or 3 provinces by turn 10, or 1 every 3 turns. Even with Alteration 2, which would take what, at least 3 turns to get to, even with the pretender researching?

VH research is the hardest setting. Alt 2 takes quite a while to reach, even for the high-research nations.

A Fire 9 phoenix can take the easier level 9 indies (meaning militia/LI/HI/archers) with only evocation 1. It may take him 2 tries, though. Once you also get Alt-2, the phoenix can easily take one province per turn, except for a few troublesome types like the big vine tree thingies (whatever they are called).

Also, any of the dragons can take the easier level 9 indies with no research, but he risks taking afflictions and perhaps even dying.

The Vampire Queen can also take provinces without research if you are willing to try a couple of times and have her scripted correctly.

With a power bless effect and sacred troops, you can expect your prophet to begin to take level 9 indies on turn 4, especially with the recruitable balance mods. But this is obviously nation dependent. Pretty much any nation (no matter the pretender) ought to be taking L9 indies from turn 5 on by using an army, probably one province every two turns (with reinforcements/searching in between).