Combat Mechanics

[Q]

What is the reason you choose turn based combat instead of real time?
Turn based combat IMO has the big problem of who shots first.

[Kwayne]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

I guess all in all what I am posing is the question of how difficult is it to make a beautiful looking game? Logistically speaking, if a combat space sim game more than 10yrs old! (Freespace)could do it then. Is it realistic to ask that Star Legacy look at least as good?

No. The only thing changed in the last 10 years is technology, so even if we could say we're well equipped, our professional knowledge and talents are still not in the same league with FS2's creators, not to mention our time and budget. Also, part of the SL agenda, namely "easy modability" is a limiting factor on graphical development. 2D-ness is one of the consequences of this agenda, and there will be numerous other "sacrifices" made so more and more people (including myself) will be able to expand SL after its release, without uglifying the game too much.

My goal is to make a small step beyond SEIV, so the default graphics style still requires the skills needed to make SEIV shipsets, with a small addition of a 2D editing skill requirement.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Originally Posted by Q

What is the reason you choose turn based combat instead of real time?
Turn based combat IMO has the big problem of who shots first.

Heh, that's actually one of the problems we're trying to overcome.

Turns are set to be processed simultaneously by the game host. When a player takes their turn, they are not actually moving ships, but giving orders to ships, which are then processed when the turn is generated. The combat system is not functional yet, and it's still subject to change.

[Gregstrom]

Sounds interesting. I guess that could mean simultaneous fire, or perhaps fire order depends on ship and crew stats. Can the orders be disobeyed if, say, ships fail a morale check?

That set me off thinking about crew discipline. If gunners are ordered to hold fire until they reach optimum range, a green crew might fire early. Or maybe they could panic and take potshots at incoming missiles instead of their designated target.

[Louist]

Gives a greater weight to ship experience than just +2% hit chance

[Gregstrom]

Yeah. And you could send out green crews in emergencies - more or less competent with ship systems, but prone to making bad decisions.

Also, unique ship captains (assuming they exist) could have an effect here - you could have Kirk types who have amazing stats but are prone to going off and doing their own thing.

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by Urendi Maleldil

Hey Marco, we're still figuring out how the combat system will work, but it will be a 2d environment as opposed to Descent's 3d one. (Descent was a great game, by the way. I remember the original from 2005). We'll also be using PNG images for the ships rather than 3d models, since they don't require special 3d tools for users to mod. That said however, we are attempting to create the epic feel of large scale fleet vs fleet combat actions.

The problem we're facing right now is how to get that same epic feel from a real time game into a turn-based game.

Well then may I suggest going the route of small budget space combat 2d realtime strategy game Hey Marco, we're still figuring out how the combat system will work, but it will be a 2d environment as opposed to Descent's 3d one. (Descent was a great game, by the way. I remember the original from 2005). We'll also be using PNG images for the ships rather than 3d models, since they don't require special 3d tools for users to mod. That said however, we are attempting to create the epic feel of large scale fleet vs fleet combat actions.

The problem we're facing right now is how to get that same epic feel from a real time game into a turn-based game.[/quote]
]Gratuituous Space Battles? It is neither overly ambitious or necessarily turn based. When you choose 2d over 3d it is understandable its all about budget and time contraints. But I am sure GSBs also dealt with these contraints and somehow managed a realtime epic feel.

Originally Posted by Kwayne

No. The only thing changed in the last 10 years is technology, so even if we could say we're well equipped, our professional knowledge and talents are still not in the same league with FS2's creators, not to mention our time and budget. Also, part of the SL agenda, namely "easy modability" is a limiting factor on graphical development. 2D-ness is one of the consequences of this agenda, and there will be numerous other "sacrifices" made so more and more people (including myself) will be able to expand SL after its release, without uglifying the game too much.

My goal is to make a small step beyond SEIV, so the default graphics style still requires the skills needed to make SEIV shipsets, with a small addition of a 2D editing skill requirement.

I thankyou for your reply. As I mentioned before, I think GSB's approach is right on the money in terms of viability and still providing a grandness that is not restricted by the scales small productions such as these are limited to.

I hope for the sake of a memorable and neatly packaged effort that this game offers more than the budget efforts such as SEIV affords an avid gamer. I wish for something alittle more engaging visually than the trappings of so called "spreadsheets in space".

Kudos.

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by Urendi Maleldil

Hey Marco, we're still figuring out how the combat system will work, but it will be a 2d environment as opposed to Descent's 3d one. (Descent was a great game, by the way. I remember the original from 2005). We'll also be using PNG images for the ships rather than 3d models, since they don't require special 3d tools for users to mod. That said however, we are attempting to create the epic feel of large scale fleet vs fleet combat actions.

The problem we're facing right now is how to get that same epic feel from a real time game into a turn-based game.

Well then may I suggest going the route of small budget space combat 2d realtime strategy game Gratuituous Space Battles? It is neither overly ambitious or necessarily turn based. When you choose 2d over 3d it is understandable its all about budget and time contraints. But I am sure GSBs also dealt with these contraints and somehow managed a realtime epic feel.

Originally Posted by Kwayne

No. The only thing changed in the last 10 years is technology, so even if we could say we're well equipped, our professional knowledge and talents are still not in the same league with FS2's creators, not to mention our time and budget. Also, part of the SL agenda, namely "easy modability" is a limiting factor on graphical development. 2D-ness is one of the consequences of this agenda, and there will be numerous other "sacrifices" made so more and more people (including myself) will be able to expand SL after its release, without uglifying the game too much.

My goal is to make a small step beyond SEIV, so the default graphics style still requires the skills needed to make SEIV shipsets, with a small addition of a 2D editing skill requirement.

I thankyou for your reply. As I mentioned before, I think GSB's approach is right on the money in terms of viability and still providing a grandness that is not restricted by the scales small productions such as these are limited to.

I hope for the sake of a memorable and neatly packaged effort that this game offers more than the budget efforts such as SEIV affords an avid gamer. I wish for something alittle more engaging visually than the trappings of so called "spreadsheets in space".

Kudos.

PS: Please delete my last misspost, unfortunately this board has a expiry time for edits, which is quite counterproductive IMHO

[Ed Kolis]

Yes, I keep bringing up GSB as an example of how strategic (i.e. AI-controlled) combat "should be done"... provide lots of options for the player to set strategies beforehand (i.e. more so than SE5), and then let the lasers fly!

The trick with incorporating that into a 4X game is that it's not just a single fleet engagement - you might have your one fleet encounter several enemy fleets of different compositions on the same turn, and you don't even know what you're up against until the turn processes, at which point it's too late to set orders, at least in PBEM... in single player and network games, this could work, but then in those scenarios, you could even allow the player to control the ships if he so desires!

So for PBEM games, we'd have to have some REALLY complex fleet strategy options for this to work properly... conditional branching of strategies, or at least a wide variety of target prioritization and retreat condition options, taking the best from SE5 and GSB! This will definitely take some planning... input is welcome!

[MarcoPolo]

I have great faith in the makers of SL to come up with a worthy game. But I would hate to see some terribly painful and overly complex turn based system that bleeds all the fun and excitement out of ship combat. To do this would neither be fun or engaging. Instead it would turn ship combat into a chore.

When I played Armada 2526, its ship combat was realtime but so poorly executed that I wanted the autoresolve button to take care of most combat. Its a shame when games fall into that pitfall. Because its signs of a poorly considered system, and not just budget constraints.

We the gamers and purchasers of your product understand you cannot reinvent the wheel so to speak but implore you take whichever shortcuts necessary and capitalise on 2D ideas like Gratuitous Space Battles. I am still a firm believer that even a small crew of programmers can be resourceful enough to come up with a very impressive offering.