Conceptual Balance Mod 5.4

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
Son of the Sea has been left with W2 D1 ? Death is IMHO pretty unthematic for him, why give him that (and not, say, N1..) ??

Two reasons, the nerid is already water/nature, and I feel death fits well with sea god's traditional role as capricious and vindictive. Not that I feel it is set in stone, but I don't really have a better idea for making him interesting.

[Reverend Zombie]

PDF said:
Son of the Sea has been left with W2 D1 ? Death is IMHO pretty unthematic for him, why give him that (and not, say, N1..) ??

From Wikipedia on Greek sea gods (points to support for either death or nature, IMO):

The sea - at once barren and prosperity-bringing, loomed large and ambivalently in the Greek mind. Aside from the ebb and flow of piracy sea-travel was fraught with superhuman hazard and uncertainty until the Industrial Revolution. It is impossible to assess the spiritual crisis in Aegean cultures' relations with the sea's dangers and the capacity of its divinities that must have been engendered by the tsunamis that accompanied the volcanic explosion and collapse of Thera, ca. 1650 – 1600 BCE. Can the sense of the sea and its deities have survived the cataclysm unchanged? It seems unlikely. The sea could therefore stand as a powerful symbol of the unknown and otherwordly.

Thus Cape Tanaerum, the point at which mainland Greece juts most sharply into the Mediterranean, was at once an important sailor's landmark, a shrine of Poseidon, and the point at which Orpheus and Heracles were said to have entered Hades.

[Cainehill]

As I have said in the past, water and air would really make thematic sense for a pretender like the Son of the Sea. Waves, winds, storms : the oceans may take many lives, but that's merely incidental, collateral damage if you will.

[PDF]

Cainehill said:

As I have said in the past, water and air would really make thematic sense for a pretender like the Son of the Sea. Waves, winds, storms : the oceans may take many lives, but that's merely incidental, collateral damage if you will.

Agreed. I admit Poseidon was not overly a nice dude [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif[/img], but he has no tie to necromancy either - and THAT'S Death magic. Water+Air is the way to go to have an Ocean/Storm/Wind pretender God.

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:

Agreed. I admit Poseidon was not overly a nice dude [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif[/img], but he has no tie to necromancy either - and THAT'S Death magic. Water+Air is the way to go to have an Ocean/Storm/Wind pretender God.

Air could be argued to fit better... but there are very few air spells that can be cast underwater, while death has many.

[PDF]

Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!)..

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!)..

Just so we're clear, look at the readme, how many things got improved vs. how many things got nerfed?

Indeed SCs are still powerful in the mid and late game, I don't see any around that and still have a use for 90% of items. With drakes, I actually see them used quite a bit now, not in the the mid and late much, but that is not what they were intended to be. Vine ogres are not, in my opinion, better or worse. They make better shields than ever, but now have another weakness. Additionally, a lot of other nature summons were improved, making ogres not so much of a no-brainer.

With flying boots, I think putting them at a2 has a number of positive points. A bit harder to do SCs, and less in my opinion unthematic, with as you say everyone and their mother using them. I don't believe it is enough to really tip the balance in favor of air nations, particularly compared to the base game where they have easy wrathing, false horrors and a cheaper staff of storms.

[Turin]

I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

[quantum_mechani]

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

I actually don't see the Ivy Kings as so supremely useful, most of the time I prefer lamia queens.

The cave drake is indeed a nice tank, and the ice drake sees quite a bit of action too. The fire drake not so much, because of alchemy, but still used sometimes. The wyvern is actually still pretty bad, particularly compared to black hawks, I will probably improve it slightly next version.

Bane lords I have seen a lot fewer of since they went to 15 gems, together with life drain nerfs. Now it is mostly just the uniques, pretenders and later on tartartains that become army crushers.

[Endoperez]

Unfortunately, Water has even less spells castable underwater than Air:

Water-based Evocations:
Cold Bolt/Blast -no
Slime -no
Rain -no
Water Strike -yes
Falling Frost -no
Ice Strike -no
Niefel Flames -no
Murdering Winter -yes (castable, but not targettable)

Total: 1 castable combat spell. Of the Water/Fire combination, only Geyser works underwater.

Air-based Evocations:
Lightning bolt -yes
Shock Wave -yes
Mist -no
Thunder Strike -yes
Orb Lightning -yes
Storm -no
Wrathful Skies -no
Shimmering Field -yes

total: Mist is negated, but archers can't be used underwater. Besides that, Air only loses Storm and Wrathful Skies; all 5 other Air evocations can be cast underwater.

Water/Air Freezing Mist can't be cast underwater. And I forgot Globals, it seems. On combat boosts, Water gets Water Shield (+5? def), but neither loses anything. Even Mistform works underwater.

Googling defineoseidon yielded an interesting idea:
"God of the sea and earthquakes. Horses and bulls are sacred to him. Originally the god of earth tremors, of vegetation and fecundity, Poseidon fought for the Olympians against the Titans, and his reward after the victory was dominion over the seas, lakes and rivers. Poseidon's fits of rage manifest as storms"

Water-Earth, anyone? Besides Water, only earth, mud and rocks are easily found under water. And Death, for some. Mechanical Men, Iron Dragons and Enlivened Statues can go underwater, even though MMs have to be constructed on land. Earth and Water/Earth Evocations don't work underwater, but all the boosts do.

It would also make Shrouds of the Saint an interesting option for both Atlantis and R'lyeh. 50% Quickness, reinvigoration 5 and natural prot +5 (maybe +9 with +5 armour of Shroud?) for no extra encumberance seems like a good deal for mages. And the fun I would have with Enchantment-driven Claymen - Enlivened Statues fest with W9E9... I considered modding a Head of Clay pretender god just to try out crazy Pythium blessing goodness.