Daunted by Long Campaign force selection

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

In a German campaign - core AT units can convert to SP-AAA later on when Allied air gets significant.

Having the flak elements have gained experience means that when converted to arty (in a non German core) they then have quicker response times. And any German anti tank converts to flak tend to be noticeably more effective since they usually have a sizeable kill total (and hence the experience gain for that) by the time they do switch roles.

Cheers
Andy

So what's the best flak to buy and later convert to SP-AAA? In a current German LC I started with 2 3.7cm flak batteries and upgraded the 4 most experienced to Wirbelwinds with lower ranged 20mm after the first Western Front battle (June 44). Unfortunately a platoon of Panthers got left out in open fields shooting up Brit infantry for too long and 3 of them got whacked by 4 Typhoons with only 1 point of damage inflicted by 2 or 3 Wirbels in range. (In the first West Front battle--a German delay--the original stationary flak damaged 3 of 4 Typhoons during their first strike, with only one Panther lost).

While the tanks would probably have been lost regardless, would it have been better to upgrade to Moebelwagons with 3.7cm guns instead? Thanks.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by jivemi

So what's the best flak to buy and later convert to SP-AAA? In a current German LC I started with 2 3.7cm flak batteries and upgraded the 4 most experienced to Wirbelwinds with lower ranged 20mm after the first Western Front battle (June 44). Unfortunately a platoon of Panthers got left out in open fields shooting up Brit infantry for too long and 3 of them got whacked by 4 Typhoons with only 1 point of damage inflicted by 2 or 3 Wirbels in range. (In the first West Front battle--a German delay--the original stationary flak damaged 3 of 4 Typhoons during their first strike, with only one Panther lost).

While the tanks would probably have been lost regardless, would it have been better to upgrade to Moebelwagons with 3.7cm guns instead? Thanks.

Best flak would be a ZSU-23-4 with its radar and fire control, but that is post-war, unfortunately.

In WW2, flak is about numbers and being lucky really. In my current LC I have a platoon of ground 37mm and 2 sections of some armoured truck with 37mm, but I usually buy 3-4 support sections of SP-flak. The tin trucks sometimes will survive cannon or MG strafing, and aren't too expensive.

I tend to keep my core SP trucks in the middle zone, the ground mounts on any nice ridge to protect the arty park, and the support ones try to keep up with the armour, while staying out of line of sight of his AT weapons. Preferably within 10 hexes of the main pack.

In the later war things like moebelwagens come along with 4-5 fire control, rather than the 2 or so of earlier war - and would likely prove to be better shots. You still would want them close by though, not lounging in the back.

So - yes the moebelwagen would have been a useful upgrade to have taken, if the choice was there.

[Mobhack]

1) The support points are there to buy what you think you need for the mission offered. You can buy anything with these.

Typically in an assault, you would buy loads of arty and some engineers. Barge carriers in a river crossing. Transport planes to jump out of.

But if you think you'll need some AAA because you have zero air, the visibility is fine, and its the 44 USA across the table - buy that.

If you think the map is close (loads of city, woods etc) and you are short on grunts - buy a leg co in support. Maybe 2. Maybe Soviet SMG companies, if it is Stalingrad or Berlin...

In winter, ski troops come in handy. Most folks don't have those in the core since they are wasted points most of the year. My skiers are support extras.

If you are delaying or defending then you may want to buy some extra anti-tank guns or bazooka teams. If defending - some bunkers may be useful.

If you are advancing, you may want to buy some little scout cars, cavalry, motorcyclists or other recce troops to scout out the enemy. If you are a leg-based force, you may decide that for this particular battle a company of trucks to shuttle them forwards as your taxi service may be a good idea.

Ammo bunkers are extremely expensive - but survive well. If in a core they will be gaining experience which increases their core value, but other than the crew getting out and into a pistol fight - of nil practical use. So the longer you have them, the more buy points the enemy gets as they become more valuable through experience gain. So ammo bunkers (and other ammo units) are something to avoid or minimise in the core - and buy with support points. Unarmed trucks perhaps similar - experience gets them very little other than better morale (if they survive) and if you need them, support points is probably the best place, bar your dedicated AT gun towers.

If you are armour-light then some maps may scream at you that some tanks may be a good thing here. Like pancake flat steppe perhaps. A couple of KV-1 can make all the difference to a rifle battalion core with maybe a few T-26 in their golf bag.

It's entirely up to you what you buy with support points, based on your battlefield analysis and what your core consists of.

Of course - if you spend on support troops, then the AI gets more points in proportion to the battle type. So if you think your core is 100% up for the job, you may want to skip the extra spend. Any support points not spent don't matter (unless you are player #2 of course, since #1 has bought already - so in a 2 player campaign if you have 1200 support points as the second player - then use them!).

2) It would help - but be complicated.

3) Destroyed units with no survivors start as fresh - they were wiped out. Anything with experience gained and 1 crew left alive only loses 5 or so points for buying a new ride (so don't swap units every battle - upgradeitis means never learning your new toy!). However - converting something to a completely different type is less good. A tank to an SP Howitzer, say. The tank leader has armour leadership built up - but an SP arty piece wants arty command to do well.

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks Andy! Very useful information indeed, it has changed my view of how my battalion should be organized. Though a couple of questions arose though regarding the info you just posted:

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Having the flak elements have gained experience means that when converted to arty (in a non German core) they then have quicker response times.

Why in a "non" german core? are things working differently if the units belong to a german core?

Originally Posted by Mobhack

3) Destroyed units with no survivors start as fresh - they were wiped out. Anything with experience gained and 1 crew left alive only loses 5 or so points for buying a new ride

You mean they loose experience points?

Does it works the same way when they only change to a new ride?

Thanks in advance

[Mobhack]

Oh - the other thing about having a core off-map arty unit is that after they have gained much experience they become ace counter-battery boys.

My core arty battery if provided with a decent-ranged piece will often stay silent in reserve waiting to splat enemy off map firers for most of the battle. I only plot them for on-map fires when the enemy off-map dies down, or if I spot a concentration of on-map arty that needs immediate attention, like Katyushas.

Once they have got up to about 80+ experience and 10+ kills, its a nice little specialisation for them. Remember that in war, 50% or more of all the arty's fire missions were counter-battery fires.

[Mobhack]

Q1) In a German core, you may well be wanting to turn core ATG into AAA of some sort late war as the air gets black with Allied planes...

In an Allied core, AAA is only useful early/mid war, so is best turned to more arty or SP-AT etc, come the later war.

Q2) Dead units will be refreshed with a leader straight from the replacement pool at basic experience for that year.

Any other unit when changed to another type in a campaign, will lose a few experience points as they are unaccustomed to the brand new kit. So players who swap troops lots in between battles wont see as much progress.

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks a lot Andy! Fast and useful as always. I'll form my battalion as advised for my next campaign and see how it goes.

BTW, there's a lot of advice and useful info about the game engine scattered trough these forums, I believe it would be nice if it finds its way into the game guide.

[Mobhack]

Did you read post #2 in this thread, the section headed "Stage 1"?

Did you read post #17's last paragraph, starting "Things not to have in the core" or somesuch - part beginning "any more than a battery.."



The standard military rule-of-thumb allocation of artillery is one (1) battery per battalion for general purpose fighting.

A 3-4 battalion brigade will have one regiment(bn) of 3 batteries of Field Arty, and therefore its usually divvied out one per constituent battalion of the supported brigade.

You will only get more than that in a planned assault or defence. Those are the ones you buy with your support points.

Now - perhaps you may be getting confused with say the pre-baked British core, thinking that core had "2 batteries" when it does not. British field batteries were 2 platoons (troops) of 4 guns, for 8 guns total, whereas some continental armies only had 4 guns per battery. Some had 6 - which in the game will be 2 platoons of 3. Again, not 2 batteries, but one (1) battery made up of 2 elements.

The Brits actually used a 12 gun battery, 2 off in a regiment (Bn) in the 39-40 period, but went back to 3x8 gun batteries per regiment of 24 field guns. 12s were too cumbersome. But if your UK core starts in 39, feel free to buy 3 Troops - it is historical.

The real strength of the Allied armies in WW2 was in their artillery arm, and the ability to supply these guns with large amounts of ammo. Unlike the Germans who were always short on guns, and were usually rationed to a small number of shells per day in the late war.

So feel free to "go large" with arty if USA or Commonwealth, in your core or in support points. Soviets should only do so in the attack - and then the batteries should be general Support or perhaps Direct Support - cheaper and less responsive, but then more tubes can be bought for the same points expenditure.

[RVPERTVS]

Yes I did, sorry, actually I believe I was confused with your force selection on the LC as it includes some extra stuff besides the Stages on your first post, but then I realized that they were support assets though I also noticed that you bought the close recon and Inf AT elements mentioned on Stage 2 with supply points so I was wondering if some howitzers could be traded for some SP guns and flaks. The issue was if I should keep just one battery for all the campaign.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info, I was reading some online material on the subject, I see that every nation had its peculiarities but overall it's as you say: 1 battery per battalion and the Germans were short on ordnance during the late stages of the war

I read that the Germans could assign more tubes to a given battalion depending on the importance and nature of the mission and special circumstances, but this was uncommon during the late war as the German stance became more defensive.

Also that "great emphasis was also placed on the battalion as the fire-control unit, and the separation of the battalion into independent batteries to be used as attached artillery is never recommended except in extremely large sectors, or under very difficult terrain conditions such as thick woods."

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...artillery.html

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...-division.html

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Now - perhaps you may be getting confused with say the pre-baked British core, thinking that core had "2 batteries" when it does not. British field batteries were 2 platoons (troops) of 4 guns, for 8 guns total, whereas some continental armies only had 4 guns per battery. Some had 6 - which in the game will be 2 platoons of 3. Again, not 2 batteries, but one (1) battery made up of 2 elements.

The Brits actually used a 12 gun battery, 2 off in a regiment (Bn) in the 39-40 period, but went back to 3x8 gun batteries per regiment of 24 field guns. 12s were too cumbersome. But if your UK core starts in 39, feel free to buy 3 Troops - it is historical.

OK so in a British LC (40 battles starting April 1940) two 60-pounder troops were bought as part of the core, hoping to upgrade one or both to longer-range off-map artillery for CB. Couldn't find a "howitzer battery" in the menu. However it turned out "troops" are off-map to begin with. And when one troop was changed to "25-pounder gun" all that resulted was a single field piece!

Any way to get British on-map howitzers (or medium mortar batteries bigger than 3-inch) at the start, or available to change shortly after? Thanks.