New Facility Idea- What's your opinion ?

[klausD]

"Guys, really. If you want all that, just play Outpost. Don't you think there is enough to keep track of as it is with SEIV?"

One of the reasons I play SEIV is the complexity and the micromanagement the game offers. If I want a game with fewer complexity I would play Reach for the stars or a similar simple game.

I would opt even for more economical options. Economic considerations are the most important in our modern society. Why should it be different in the future? Military is only a tool to achieve this.
In SE4 I really miss more complex trade options. In truth there are alot of different facilities but only few real strategies to settle planets.

For SE5 I would suggest the following colonization system:

a. The number of planet types should not be fixed (like now with rock, ice and gas). Number and features of planet types should be editable. Each planet type should have an own colonization tech like it is now.
Then you could have such wonderful worlds like jungle, ocean, steppe etc planets.


b. I would also carry over an idea from MOO2. The planet gravity. With low, normal or high gravity, this should be enough. You know, low grav races should not be able to live on high grav worlds and other constellation should have to pay some penalties. (except they have anti-grav technology)

c. The concept of a max population which depends on the planet size should be taken out. Instead each planetary body should have a population max. consisting of factors like size, friendly/hostile terrain, gravity, athmosphere and a generic number. (computer can calculate this during galaxy creation)
Special facilities should be able to provide more potential for population (for example if I create a "hivecity" facility, the max-pop could be increased by 1000m or such)

d. As well the concept of "space" for unit storage should also be taken out. Instead of this there should be facilities which can support certain unit types.
For example: a garrison facility which supports 100 space of troops, or a fighter garrison facility which supports fighter squadrons, or a planetary defense facility which provides space for weapon platforms.
This enables the player to make a planet either a pure military base or rather an economic center. (or a mixture of both)

e. Each planet should also have a number of "slots" for special orbital facilities.

f. Pre-requisites for facilities:
Certain facilities should have pre-requisites, like a certain usage of organic/radioactive points per turn. These could be from the same planet or imported from another. Certain facilities should also require a certain amount of population on the same planet to be effectivly operated.
If facilities dont have these pre-requisites they can only operated at a certain degree (emergency operation, maybe at 50% efficiency or so) or even not at all.

f. Freighters: Another idea from MOO2. Why not having a virtual freighter pool which transports the resources from one point to the other. The player needs not to manage the freighters, they are only virtual and collected in a pool.
But the player has to design and to build them and assign them to his imperial freighter pool. (Eg each cargo space can transport 100 resources or so - practical calculation will show it)
Freighters are also needed to transport trade goods etc.
In this form, also population could be transported. (like MOO2) This does not mean population transport in military transporters is not so important anymore. (but it could be alot faster than civilian freighters from the transport pool)

g. Piracy: Player press a shortkey and the freighter transport lanes he is able to know are coming up. If he moves warships on or near these lanes, he can destroy enemy freighters. If he has some boarding personnel on his warships there should be occasionally an increase in its own resource pools.
This would give a feeling like Cpt. Drakes Freebooters.

KlausD

[geoschmo]

Hehe. I was just playing. I am all for tweaking the economic factors of the game. Although there are times that I just want a military game too, so I hope that if this stuff is added it's optional. I just don't know if I want to have to build houses for all my people on top of everything else we already have to control. At least not all the time.

A few suggestions to allow some of this stuff without requiring it.

1. Don't change the current population/cargo/facilities limits, but DO allow some kind of population expansion facility to be modded in that will change the max population allowed the way cargo facilities can be now.

2. Add a population happiness value that is triggered when planetary population is at maximum. By default leave it zero, but this would allow mods to change this and have overpopulation become a real concern.

3. Add an ability for facilites that will allow them to not count against the facliity limits of a planet. This could be used for subteranean facilities, or for "Cloud Cities". (Anybody ever wonder why you can build a facility on a Gas Giant but can't build the same facility in the atmosphere of a rock planet? I do. ) Even better than that would be some kind of "Facility Complex" which would count as one facility, but allow you to put a fixed number of "Sub-Facilities" within it. You could almost do this the same way you do ships and stuff now. Have a "complex" design file with different size complexes would allow different facilities, and each sub-faclility would be like a component. If you wanted to change one of the facilities, you could make a new facility complex design and "upgrade" it. "Urban Planning" SEIV style. But again, make it moddable but not required.

Geoschmo

[dogscoff]

Even better than that would be some kind of "Facility Complex" which would count as one facility, but allow you to put a fixed number of "Sub-Facilities" within it.

Why not just have an "adds X facility slots to a planet" ability for facilities, and a one-per-planet restriction on it??

[geoschmo]

[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:

Why not just have an "adds X facility slots to a planet" ability for facilities, and a one-per-planet restriction on it??

I suppose either way would work just fine.

I can see a potential problem with your suggestion in that if the facility with that ability is destroyed, you are now over your planetary limit. You would have to scrap however many facilities it takes to get you back below the limit so you can rebuild the facility with the ability.

Of course with my idea when you lose the facility complex, you lose all the facilities in it, so I don't know which would be better.

Either would be nice.

Geoschmo

[Spuzzum]

It's possible that with the suggestion of simply having the "Adds X to facility limits", if the facility is destroyed, X random facilities that were built at a later date than that building are destroyed.

It works, since you don't actually know which facilities were built within the new facility if you built it early -- and, if you built it late, the only buildings that would be destroyed would be the ones immediately following it.

But, whatever. ;-)

[ July 05, 2002, 17:35: Message edited by: Spuzzum ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Hehe. I was just playing. I am all for tweaking the economic factors of the game. Although there are times that I just want a military game too, so I hope that if this stuff is added it's optional. I just don't know if I want to have to build houses for all my people on top of everything else we already have to control. At least not all the time.

A few suggestions to allow some of this stuff without requiring it.

1. Don't change the current population/cargo/facilities limits, but DO allow some kind of population expansion facility to be modded in that will change the max population allowed the way cargo facilities can be now.

2. Add a population happiness value that is triggered when planetary population is at maximum. By default leave it zero, but this would allow mods to change this and have overpopulation become a real concern.

3. Add an ability for facilites that will allow them to not count against the facliity limits of a planet. This could be used for subteranean facilities, or for "Cloud Cities". (Anybody ever wonder why you can build a facility on a Gas Giant but can't build the same facility in the atmosphere of a rock planet? I do. ) Even better than that would be some kind of "Facility Complex" which would count as one facility, but allow you to put a fixed number of "Sub-Facilities" within it. You could almost do this the same way you do ships and stuff now. Have a "complex" design file with different size complexes would allow different facilities, and each sub-faclility would be like a component. If you wanted to change one of the facilities, you could make a new facility complex design and "upgrade" it. "Urban Planning" SEIV style. But again, make it moddable but not required.

Geoschmo

Well, if SE V is as modifiable as SE IV I don't see why you couldn't strip a lot of the economic things out and have a nearly pure wargame if that's what you want. That strikes me as something like buying a Corvette to fry eggs on the engine block, but what the heck... it's your money.

Idea 1 -- there should be several completely different means of increasing planet space.

One would be 'subterranean' options, as you suggest but only a race who can handle that sort of living should be able to use that. Humans would get pretty depressed living 500 feet underground.

Another would be something I've been suggesting for years now: orbital elevators and a 'ringworld' around the planet. Surely you've head of the 'orbital elevator' that might be placed on the equator and allow direct access to orbit without rocket launches? Now imagine a spce station out at geosynchronous orbit so large it forms a complete ring around the planet. Extra facility and population space.

Idea 2 -- Yeah, there's Yet Another Happiness Modifier that would be useful. 'Planet full' or something like that. I'll add it to my list along with 'Per 1M of Enemy Population killed' and 'Per Enemy Planet in System' as well as 'Per each our planets in rioting' modfifier for global empire effects.

Idea 3 - Yes, this is basically a repeat of idea 1. Once there is a 'Population Capacity' power for facilities you'll be able to mod something or other. Designing facilities sounds messy. I'd much prefer to stop building individual facilities, though. Instead have just a 'type' indicator that you've created this sort of complex/facility on the planet and then have 'sliders' for the proportion of the planet's resoures (space, population/labor) to devote to each type. There could then be a new effect to higher technologies. They could reduce the space required for the same level of production, effect, etc. Upgrade your computer complexes from 'mainframe' to 'LAN' & get more space on your planet!

[ July 05, 2002, 17:49: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Spuzzum:
It's possible that with the suggestion of simply having the "Adds X to facility limits", if the facility is destroyed, X random facilities that were built at a later date than that building are destroyed.

It works, since you don't actually know which facilities were built within the new facility if you built it early -- and, if you built it late, the only buildings that would be destroyed would be the ones immediately following it.

But, whatever. ;-)

Well, currently if you capture a planet from a race that has the advanced stoarge technique racial trait, you can be over the limit of facilities. You can also get that way by moving wrong atmosphere pop to a planet and removing the right atmosphere pop, thus converting it to a domed colony. In either case you are now over the limit on facs and the excess is not destroyed. I assumed this would be the same way.

Geoschmo

[ July 05, 2002, 17:54: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[geoschmo]

Baron, I am not suggesting we strip out any of the exsisting economic factors. I just don't know how much more detail and micromanagment I can handle. Of course as you said before, if the ministers were more reliable then they could be trusted to take care of a lot of this stuff, unless I get the urge to meddle.

If you think my idea 3 was a repeat of idea 1, you must have misunderstood one of them. Idea 1 was just to add a facility that allows for additional population over the population limit set by the game. Nothing more, nothing less. THe same thing cargo facilities do, but for population instead of for cargo.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Another would be something I've been suggesting for years now: orbital elevators and a 'ringworld' around the planet. Surely you've head of the 'orbital elevator' that might be placed on the equator and allow direct access to orbit without rocket launches? Now imagine a spce station out at geosynchronous orbit so large it forms a complete ring around the planet. Extra facility and population space.

I like this. This makes me think maybe we are asking for the wrong things here. Instead of modifying the planet, maybe we should be pushing for ships components that can be "living space" for population, instead of just treating them as cargo. I know you have suggested this before as well Baron.

If we could build space stations with population centers that could reproduce, have an effect on the space yards present, produce resources at a rate modified by population. Research? Intel?

The same technique could be used then either for orbital comunities or truly space bound races if you simply cut the tether and not require they be in orbit.

Geo

[Crimson]

So it comes back to we, the players, need 4 comps:

• Population
• intel
• research
• add "x" facilites

and the follow ability

• add population happiness value for over population

Right