The problem of low hit points on humans

[PvK]

Thinking of HP as "heroic (survival) points" is an abstraction that might satisfy some players for a while. But it's not a very accurate abstraction, and of course leads to characters being practically unkillable until they wear out, which is good if your goal is to avoid making players sad by seeing their characters die by any sudden bad luck. Of course, when the HP run out in such a system, suddenly the character can't afford to stay in combat.

Personally, I enjoy that Dominions has more detailed game mechanics that more directly represent things like fatigue, luck, defense skill, etc, instead of lumping things into a big buffer of hitpoints. I also enjoy the unpredictableness of the results, and the sudden tragic injuries and losses (and successes) against the odds. I think a lot of interesting and sense-making cause-and-effect would be lost if a bunch of bonus hitpoints were thrown on some human characters to keep them alive (though I can see that some players would enjoy doing so in a mod in order to have it play more like games they're used to).

To increase the power and survivability of some heroes, I'd sooner give them higher Defense, Luck, MR, Air Shield (representing caution/tactics/dodging/whatever), or even a few points of Prot (representing toughness or the ability to do something to reduce wound severity), before I'd resort to dumping on HP.

As for arguments that "it's a fantasy game; it shouldn't be realistic" - bah! The detail and realism of the framework and non-magical statistics are what give the magical stuff context, meaning, and proportion. Without the foundation of realistic systems and appropriate values, the magic and fantastic stuff would lose its meaning. In Dominions, if a spell says it will rip people limb from limb, it really will - but as soon as people's Hit Points start multiplying, it's also nerfing the fantastic and removing its meaning - the giants would no longer be giants compared to men, etc.

As for citing weaknesses of the representation of assassination and trampling, those are just weaknesses, not intentionally put there to improve "playability and theme"!

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

[B0rsuk]

Realism is not mutually exclusive with fantasy. And yes, most RPGs are shallow, disconnected from reality, common sense, history. What I like about Dominions is that it feels much more real than most of game worlds out there. You never see an item described like 'This is a very manly talisman, and a woman wearing it will speak in low voice, or even grow a beard' in other games. This is because, unlike many others, Dominions draws heavily from history, real world beliefs, psychology etc.
Funny how you become original by drawing heavily from history and real-world myths.

I, in turn, find it amusing that so many people can't accept that cannon fodder can also exist in ancient/medieval styled worlds. Make one different fantasy game with cannon fodder and suddenly you missed the One True Way. I don't think it's a coincidence that sides are called Nations instead of Races, and Commanders instead of Heroes.

[Turin]

PvK said:

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

[Potatoman]

I, in turn, find it amusing that so many people can't accept that cannon fodder can also exist in ancient/medieval styled worlds. Make one different fantasy game with cannon fodder and suddenly you missed the One True Way. I don't think it's a coincidence that sides are called Nations instead of Races, and Commanders instead of Heroes.

So you believe that Dominions invented the faceless thug, and that it's suddenly become the step in game design? Would you also find it more realistic (and therefore better) to eliminate the magic summons or abstact them to re-skinned HI? Magic is, after all, part of the mythology & fantasy aspect of the game which you hold in such disdain.

Realism and fantasy are not mutualy exclusive, but they are by definition not entirely compatible. The issue is where you chose to sacrifice realism for fantasy and where you uphold history. Human heroes feature prominently in every single mythology, legend, and culture upon which Dominions is based, yet they are unworkable in the game. I agree that this is realistic. But it is also unthematic and untrue to the source material of the game. It's also pretty disappointing to finally get a national hero event (notice the distinction from "commanders" which are recruitable), only to find out that it's just some useless human "hero" with 2 more att than a normal schmuck. This isn't an irrational desire to impose "The One True Way" on anybody, this is an opportunity to improve the game.

[Epaminondas]

Potatoman said:
It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, Minotaurs won't swing their axes at any enemy smaller than themselves, and magic is everywhere. Realism and common sense take a back seat to playability and theme in dominions.

In both real legends and "shallow fantasy RPGs" (quoted to preserve the snootiness), heroes are heroic because of their extraordinary skill, strength, power, etc. But this didn't really translate that well into dominions, where most of the heroes didn't get enhancements that are statistically significant enough to make them survivable in combat. I'd really like to see an official implementation of the Worthy Heroes mod or something similar.

You took the words out of my mouth.

1. It's not like this game is intended to be historical or "realistic" a la the Total War series. Even then, the Total War series had certain units (remember the sword saint in the original version? and Generals after certain boots became near-superhuman in many versions) that defied conventional logic, units that could single-handedly take on hundreds of units.

2. I also noticed the "snoot[y]" comment you isolated--which must've been directed at me since I am the original poster. I suppose I must be a total loser because I must've played "shallow fantasy" games in the past (which is an unwarranted speculation itself, as I prefer strategy games). Truly amusing. I didn't know that there was a caste system among hardcore gamers.

3. To put things in perspective, I think I should re-emphasize it's not a dramatic HP point increase I am asking; i.e., I am not asking human commanders to be in anyways comparable to Basalt Kings or Niefel Jarls or what not. Not even close. I am asking an increase to the extent that the more heroic or successful or exceptional human commanders can reach around 20 HPs, without being a Prophet or acquiring an HP-enhancing Heroic trait. 20. That is all. You would still have less than a third of what a Niefel Jarl has and way less than half of other heavy hitters like Dai Onis or Basalt Kings.

4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

[mivayan]

Potatoman said:
It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, (...)

The last guy to tell the general to not go for a morning walk alone was hanged. The general *always* goes for morning walks. Over fields. Too bad he's dead. Perhaps the next one will bring bodyguards.

Anyone got a quick reference to fun heroic tales that cant happen in current dominions?

[Taqwus]

Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die. Those piles of jewels, magical armor and ancient weapons lying around the dragon's lair didn't come from peasants or their goats. Those hordes of ravaging monsters are fearsome because they're NOT easy to defeat. That legendary beast which slew all the wannabe slayers for years... was killing those who thought themselves the best equipped, the bravest, the most skilled. Eventually, somebody succeeds and gets regarded as the savior of the realm to be respected while the also-rans get... some posthumous appreciation. Or the monsters run riot and destroy the kingdom, but that sort of dampens the ability to write sequels, and there aren't that many orcs or trolls to constitute a market for that sort of literature.

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly. The few exceptional heroes themselves -- I'd concur with the notion that it's their skill, their guile, their luck, their willpower, and not too infrequently their gear that makes the most of the difference, at least for the humans. For half-human, half-sidhe champions or that sort of thing, other properties make some sense.

[Mind Elemental]

Epaminondas said:

4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

Commanders: What would be nice would be twofold:

- multiple levels of the standard ability (so a Firbolg with Valor, or an emerald lord, would have a greater effect than an ordinary Pythian standard bearer or centurion);

- lower all troops' morale, and to compensate give every commander a standard. Now taking along plenty of commanders to inspire the men -- and bringing good commanders -- would be important!

Heroes: I agree with what's been said here, and in the thread where someone first suggested giving the national heroes a boost in HP. The human melee heroes have awesome flavour, and are indeed superior to ordinary humans, but ultimately aren't much more useful than ordinary commanders. Try to use them as thugs, and you will be down a hero. Since all the fancy abilities (lifedrain, regen, etc) won't matter much if one lucky sword stroke can cut them down, I think increasing their HPs to 20ish is the simplest, most balanced way of boosting them. You still won't see them taking on armies by themselves, but with proper equipment, they could be quite decent army-supporting mini-thugs.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I prefer, in principle, the better gear/abilities approach. However, I'm not sure it would be as useful in practice, for the reason mentioned above. Besides, you could also argue that heroic persistence/determination could lead to more HPs...

Rudeness: I see your point, but it only seems to be a minority. Please, hang around? The more of us here -- even as lurkers, like myself -- the better.

[Epaminondas]

Taqwus said:
Heroes, even in fantasy literature, are not exactly considered to be common. They're heroic due to persisting despite the fact that the odds ARE against them -- even the exceptional ones -- and because others WILL get stomped. Heroes try or die -- and the odds are that they die....

To make recruitable commanders have more hp to turn them into superhuman warriors is to ignore the point of heroism unless you're turning it into a vast nation of superior humans and pricing them accordingly....

Taqwus,

Let me make two points.

First, again, I think you--like other posters here--are vastly (to be ironic here) exaggerating the level of HP increase I would prefer. In fact, I would say you and others are misrepresenting my argument to discredit me. So let me put things into perspective.

A base HP of around 20 for a human nation's best melee commanders would be only 7-8 HP increase from the current commanders. For some human nations (e.g. Ulm), it would be an increase of only 4-5 hit points. Does such a modest gain really constitute tranmogrifying these commanders into "superhuman" (your adjective) Herakles and Beowulfs? Oh, my. I think the true heroes of legend would be insulted, to put it mildly. Herakles (who by the way an offspring of a mortal and a god, a la our own Pathos) single-handedly took out monsters that would be represented by units with over 100 HPs in this game!

Even from a "realistic" perspective, is it so implausible to consider that the very toughest, meanest human soldiers can be 70-80 percent more or even twice as tougher or durable than your common everyday soldier? Humans display an amazing variety, and if you have read the annals of warfare throughout the ages, some men are clearly capable of--whether through simply a hardier constitution or willpower--shrugging wounds that would incapacitate or even kill the vast majority of men.

I can understand the uproar if I actually suggested that human commanders ought to have 30-40 HPs, but really, I think you protest too much in this context.

Second, okay, you say that genuine heroes "are not exactly... common" even in fantasy literature.

Fine. Would you then consider it permissible to at least apply the HP increase I suggest to national "heroes" we get? There aren't too many of them per nation (save a few exceptions), so having 3-4 humans per nation with such "superhuman" traits would not be so "common" or unbalancing in my opinion.

[Agrajag]

Epaminondas said:
4. In general, I am very disappointed at the level of interaction on this forum, if I may so. Sure, this is still a gamer forum but I'd expect better than what you'd find in, say, Warcraft III forums, given the complexity of this game and the comparatively high age of its fan base. But newcomers are persistently treated rudely by some posters (see Arralen's reponse to my damage question--even though I clearly said that I don't have the game manual and I apologized in advance if the question were so elementary; in particular, see the rather innocuous thread where a new poster posted his game impressions and what needs to be improved--causing an orgy of flame fest among the believers here).

In the end, I doubt Shrapnel or even the gaming community benefits much if you guys are so intent on offending those very potential customers who are relatively new to the game (e.g. me) but have enthusiastically embraced the Demo and wish to know more.

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that Arralen thought that the lack of manual on your side has less to do with you playing the game's demo, and more to do with you obtaining a copy of the game in what we call here* cynically "my uncle from america"
Furthermore, I'm sure by looking at the date I registered and my post count you can see I've been here for a while (though much less time than the veterans, and quite a lot of none-veterans like myself), and I can tell you from experience that this community usually treats other people (including new guys) quite well, and often much better than in other communities I frequent**, with the exception of few who tend to be a bit more flame-happy (but are otherwise nice people).


*-here being Israel, but I'm sure you get my point.
**-This has a bit to do with the average age over here, but also about this being a small and "sheltered" community, in another forum I visit, seeing spam posts from random bored people, registering just to annoy other people, is not uncommon.