Bug in AI buys?

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
I can certainly delete some of my core units to bring it into balance if my original 3000 buy is too much.
I'm not sure what the size map has to do with the choice of units?
My original German buy was just 38 AFV's (15 tanks, 12 cs tanks, 5 recon, 3 td's 3 stugs), 20 infantry squads and their transports plus two 88's. I upgraded some tanks and men and the value went to 3890 but the numbers remain at 80 TOTAL units. That's about 1 unit in every 150X150 meter grid at placement for me - a lot of ground for an infantry squad of 10 men to cover (1 man for 15 X 15 meters) or one AFV in 150X150. And let's remember 20 of my units are transports for the men.....

The AI is buying the expensive stuff like Matilda II and weighing in at 175 to 350 units in meeting engagements on the 80X80 map.

I guess I don't understand the map size versus unit numbers/quality statement? What is appropriate?

Are you saying I have to spread my 80 units out over a 120X120 map or bigger just so the AI will buy realistic quantities and types?

I'm not saying you 'have to' do anything, I'm just thinking your game would be better with a larger map. I must admit I'm somewhat confused. I got the idea that you had like 170 units. Perhaps you were talking about the enemy (even then you can see how close it is to the limit)? Now you're saying the AI has had over 300? How is that possible?????

For what I used to play the various SP's on a 80 height map, 80 units is probably a pretty good amount, though it isn't the marvelous adventure I'm seeing, still. I will probably never have more than 135 units on that 200 height map.

[snake]

DRG,
Yes, oddly for me, the next mission was an assault against the Brits and the force value was quite reasonable. In fact, with my almost 5000 point buy for auxillaries (lots of art), it was rather one sided.
I wish I had saves of those previous meeting engagements where my force was similar and GB's was so outrageous.

Still, I'm having great fun! Thanks again.

Charles,
I wish you could have seen my battle against the Belgians. I had the force I mentioned at an earlier equipment and training value and the map was covered with Belgian units - 320 at game end. Some of the meets against GB were almost as bad as you see 10-11 pages of units for player two at games end and 69 matilda II's to boot!
I wish I had saved those before moving on.

Snake

[Charles22]

I suppose the 200 unit limit is just for the human core then, or maybe the core plus support.

[snake]

Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....

[Mobhack]

snake said:
Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....

Well, your panzer 4s are worth 65 or so points each, and your halftracks are 22 or so. Your panzer 2s are worth 49 points at this experience.

You have a largely armoured core force, with a mech inf coy and absolutely no artillery that I could see, not even a mortar.

The Soviets are ADVANCING which means they get TWICE your points (9000 or so vs your 4500 or so). Note - POINTS and not NUMBERS.

At this point in the war, the Soviets are verging on GREEN status for the entire army. Some inits will be green, some will nudge into slightly better status. Rally will be about 40, morale 50. The points values reflect this. A rifle section that would cost 20 at "normal" exp 70 and morale, costs these green troops only 13 points. A t26 which has a standard cost of 41 points, is only 27 at this pathetic morale and experience.

poor experience = will not get as many shot opportunities, will lose a few more if they move etc. and will not hit as well.

Poor morale and rally ratings means they will have trouble when they get into difficulties. They will retreat and rout a lot.

They buy about 430 units, which is almost the maximum of 500 (current exe & OOBS with the revised armour costs). With the revised pick, in this period they use BT and T-26 a lot, plus T-26 lights with 2 MG turret and so you will see maybe 2-3 KV at this points level. They also buy infantry, which is cheap (2 platoons will cost about the same as your single P4).

(I hardle ever buy any mech infantry, infantry in this period walked and APCS were rare, and I find them a bit of a liability in the delay if part of the core. I limit myself to maybe 1 platoon of such for the advance giuard, and a mobile reserve in defence. If I need APCs I buy from the support points, in an advance or attack, or just move them on the tanks to a debussing area, and walk in from there. Core APCS will steadily improve, and so contribute to core points value growth. I would rather spend those points on another leg coy which is more use in the delay or defend)

I looked at your save game, and you had already broken the Russian attack with minimal losses to yourself. And without any artillery either!.

So - I fail to see the problem. The low experience and morale of the 41 Soviets (Stalins purges) means you will fight a horde of poor-quality and poorly motivated troops with poor quality leaders. This results in them having a numbers count of about 150% of a "default" 70 exp/morale force. About 11/12 of 41, Moscow and Leningrad, they start to get better, and you may also meet experienced Siberian companies and then Guards formations.

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Andy,
So you are saying that the Russians can buy 525 units including 30 KV heavy tanks and some 200 others with 9000 points at this point in the game.
And, I won't see this later on when their morale/experience is better? We'll see. BTW, I keep seeing Soviet Marines instead of regular grunts. The previous assault mission was against ALL marines and they weren't slouches.
My next mission is another delay.....
The British are still buying over twice (average 175-200)as many units as I do in North Africa even when they delay and their morale and experience is pretty darn good - I have to kill 10-11 infantry to get a squad to disperse and over 80% of their force before it breaks. They still buy lots of matildas and valentines, 30 or 40, but it's a lot better than the 90 they were getting!

I buy artillery with my support points or 88's since I seem to see so many heavy tanks from every nation I've fought against. At 500 measly support points, I can't buy but one set of 75 artillery so I spend it on the AT.
As to the Russian demise, thank god for clear weather and flat terrain - anything else and I bet I wouldn't have survived.
Hmmm, maybe I'll delte the mech part of my infantry and see what kind of points I save.....

How is the patch coming? I need my smoke back!

Snake

[Mobhack]

marines are supposed to be a 15% chance, if remining points > 500 as well , so very rare.

You have a lot of panzer 4 with the 75mm HE chucker (half your force). I concentrate on the P3 with decent 50 L/42 and then L60 when I can get them, and have not more than 1/3 of P4 for infantry CS. Probably just a section of 2, whose job is to acompany each leg rifle coy, and I generally prefer stugs for inf CS as the armour is usually better (embarrasing if they get a track hit though .

Panzer 2 I find worthless in any number. A section or 2 for recce, and as reserves in the defence (they have better armour than the GE armoured cars, which I really did not bother with, as and until the Puma arrives, then I replace any P2 with them).

Brandenbergers in the core is just, well silly - these are "special farces" and were rarely seen, definately not a part of a line panzergrenadier coy!. Should really be limited to historical scenarios. Rather expensive.

A core arty battery will increase in experience - so should be bought at the start. Experienced batteries arrive faster, and perform CB fires more often.

An observer in the core (I always by mine just after the A0 so it is right there on page 1 of the units display, easy to find) will gain experience, hence will call arty quicker. Combined with experienced core arty, faster responses.

You have 15 sabot rounds with the P3s, and even the 50/L42 will execute matildas and valentines at 300M with this round, especialy if you engage halted, get above 80% to-hit and so some "special" hits. The L/60 will stretch that to 4-500M, and the plain AP round is good. Get into positions where the valentines are coming to you (over a ridge say) and wait till they show at 3-400m.. (use your arty and mortars to drop smoke, at a pinch your infantry, if necessary, or use battlefield smoke e.g. from wrecks).

Remeber that the germans used to try to coax enemy armour onto a Pak front. Some 50mmL60 ATG and also when available, the long captured soviet 57mm is good. (the 57 I have picked off valentines at 600M with ISTR). They can move a hex, unlike 88s and 75s so can adjust position slightly, but in the core a transport light truck is a useful side-kick. Get to an objective cluster and set up a pak front onto the approaches, preferably with a 3-500m fielsd of fire, some grunts out front to protect the Pak. Wait

You should have about 4-6 on board arty barrels in your core. use these to break up approaching infantry, drop on tanks to button them up (cannot spot as easily, get unhappy, and hitting is worse if supressed). The arty bursts will cause battlefield smoke at the point of contact, which your P3 can use to reduce the engagement range to the 250-350M sort of range they can deal with matildas at (and T34 etc). Even frontally. (Ignore any long range duels till you get the 75L43). Be prepared to stalk the beasties (e.g. round a hill or trees) to get the flank shots on valentines.

Also - use your on map arty, if thy have the range, to chop any AI on-map batteries. When you fire CB on a battery of 4 or so guns - use maximum effort, target all that reaches as a "hammer blow". NB - the 15cm Sig (with ammo supply units) - is a very effective CN tool. Also good for chewing up approach roads (e.g. on winter maps or wooden bridges over water).

Always take the P3 models with at least 5cm armour on both hull and turret front, preferably 6 and 7cm versions. Ensure you dont expose your flanks to 2-pounder. with 5 armour, you are reasonably safe v 2 pounder shot at 750M, with 6 definately rather safer.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....

OH MY GOODNESS! So I guess the 200 unit maximum is just for the core size? I ought to experiment and pick 199 units in the core and see if it will let me pick more than one support unit. I suspect somebody has an answer to this.

I read further into the thread, and for me I find no problem with picking HT's in my core. I like to assign them to my most effective ground unit, which in my case doesn't mean PZG's. I'm using SS infantry for those HT's or engineers, or Brandenburgers. I just like the feel of having one platoon of HT's that if they survive the battles will have very effective MG fire. Seeing as how I don't intend to expose them to anti-tank fire too much they could be a nice little punch in dealing with soft targets. The reasoning is that though my main punch comes from tanks, the enemy will naturally prefer shooting at tanks, so the tanks may get destroyed fairly regularly and not benefit from extended fighting too much. Another thing I like to do with HT's is to use them as my core gun transport (particularly ATG's). In the defensive mission they're gun transports, while in the offensive mission they're perhaps my engineer transport.

When playing the Germans I buy one section of what I think falls under heavy artillery. They're like 100mm and have a range of 214, which is a very high number. They're my counter-battery for the most part, and I will pick 2-4 on-map IG's as the rest of my core artillery. The reason I like IG's (75's and 150's) is because I can evade counter-artillery by moving them without transport. I will always have the heavy transport for what 88ATG's I have available, because the danger of losing a support truck by having them close is insignificant to losing an 88. The IG's aren't too costly to lose anyway. I don't think IG artillery really loses or gains very much by being in the core, but if I don't pick them in the core I just won't do it. I don't know why, but as much as I like them I'm much more prone to buy off-map arty while picking support and completely forget the IG's.

I definitely like to have about 6-10 AA guns in my core, as I can't get enough protection and hope time will make them very good. I really hate that the SPAA don't have any armor at all, because that sure limits how much I can slaughter enemy infantry with them after all the enemy armor has been dispatched. Well at least it keeps me from getting them hit at all. That can be the problem with my HT's, they have armor so I sometimes get them into range of enemy ATR's, but a range of 10 hexes you wouldn't expect they would get hit very much anyway. I guess that's part of the early game frustration when you use HT's to fight at all, as they're MG's are so ineffective at the start that you compensate by getting them in closer. An armor-less SPAA? No problem keeping them out of ATR range, though sometimes I'm still dumb enough to get them within 'LMG' range.

[Mobhack]

OH MY GOODNESS! So I guess the 200 unit maximum is just for the core size? I ought to experiment and pick 199 units in the core and see if it will let me pick more than one support unit. I suspect somebody has an answer to this.

Yes. you have a limit of 200 for your core, and then the normal 500 unit limit applies, unless it is a special battle that requres a set-aside for special units (rubber rafts or landing barges) where you have less of an upper limit as the assaulter in a beach or river crossing.

Steel Panthers I had a core limit of 24, and an upper limit of about 50 units.
Steel Panthers II had a core of 50, max about 100 methinks (the above being from distant memory).

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Andy, you said:
Yes. you have a limit of 200 for your core, and then the normal 500 unit limit applies, unless it is a special battle that requres a set-aside for special units (rubber rafts or landing barges) where you have less of an upper limit as the assaulter in a beach or river crossing.

Check out my save game again and you'll count more than 500 Russians and it wasn't a beach assault or river crossing so no special units are present. I don't think the limit for AI picks is 500. I'm playing another delay and I'm sure there are more than 500 units again.

As to Art, I suppose it's because I wanted to play lots of small battles than I chose a force value of 3000. Not a lot of unit picks left after using 1000 points for art units (4-6 batteries).
Yes, my Pz 2's aren't great but I tried to pick a realistic kind of heavy tank with mech inf force and I wanted some variety. At the beggining, I had no idea that the 3000 value would keep inflanting with experience though I expected updating equipment would. I threw in some brandenburgers and some SS smg inf just to see if they were really better. Actually, I think in some ways it's worse because the SS and Brandenburgers don't retreat! Blasted high morale idiots stay in their hex and keep getting wasted instead of popping smoke and running a little like all the dang opponents. So frustrating to hit 1 guy and watch them run a hex, hit one, run, and so on while my guys just stand up and say shoot me!
High morale shouldn't mean high stupidity.......

Here are a couple of points - should these be posted in bugs?
1. I find that collateral damage hits stop weapons fire. For instance, a tank with a 75mm HE shot fires it's weapons at a unit. Normally, even if taking a casualty and NOT running, the other tank's weapons TMG and BMG's fire as well.
But, I've noticed that if the HE round forces a unit in an adjacent hex to take a casualty or even a retreat, the remaining tank weapons cease to fire at the original hex. I don't think this is correct. Why should a casualty in an adjacent hex cause the remaining weapons to quit at a totally different target?

2. If I shoot at a hex with a friendly unit in or adjacent to the target hex, my units often take suppression, casualties or even kills (on average, at least 30% of the time I get a hit on my guys.) If I shoot into an hex containing more than one enemy, everybody can and has been hit on occassion.
Fine. So I figure I'll move my tanks into a hex with enemy units (usually routed) after all my fire figuring in his turn he'll shoot my units and damage HIS as well.
Well, I've done this dozens of times and replayed turns dozens of times and I've never seen an enemy unit EVER take any casualty or damage from it's own friendly fire.
Yes, his own art will do his own guys but I've never seen an infantry casualty to one of his squads when his other squads fire into the hex containing my guys, AFV's or Inf. Never and I've done it a lot!
Sometimes, my own inf guys retreat into a hex with his inf and in his turn he fires dozens of times with many different units (inf and guns) into that hex and never hits anything but me. If I shoot into the same situation I always hurt my own units.

Does the AI have a no hurt policy to make up for it being an AI?

Charles,
How big a force do you usually buy so you can afford all that AA and art?

Snake