Operational Discussion

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Charles22

RERomine:

(P1) Aircraft not expected with 20 visibility. how do you deduce that? Sure, there's less space to shoot them down, but I don't get it. I see your game guide quote, but I still wouldn't take chances. Good to know though, maybe half to a good AA defense, the rest to maybe add to attacks (of course 'unlikely' may mean 49%). I was trying to clarify that I think HT's are technically AFV's anyway, but I don't really think of them as such. They are armored, and they can fight, just not very much is all (at least early GE ones) and their being open-topped very often, makes them definitely not precisely on the level I usually think on an AFV as, but still.

It was a combination the Game Guide reference and experience. I've never been hit by aircraft before with visibility that low. There's a first thing for everything, I suppose. My force was deployed as deemed appropriate for the most likely scenario. Artillery was expected to be the bigger threat since my force was pinned in a static defensive position. The nice thing about it was I could still be wrong and come out with a decisive victory.

(P2)Woah, so the 'unlikely' came to pass afterall. You got set up.

Every once in a while, the unexpected happens.

(P3)Yes, I realize you do, but that was part of my point, that most air attacks aren't worried about unloaded infantry and unless it is level bombers, is unlikely to cause enough damage to make it worth the strike at them if it does. If they have no AP rounds left though, that's a pretty good place to go. I can see too, with FB's that the thing is to shoot them down so they don't pester you as much, even with no AP rounds left, but naturally that is best achieved if you can figure out where they will go. I haven't studied the AP-less FB, as the combat way of doing it is to know how many flights the AI has, and be aware of their loads, and keep track of how many times they have dropped what. Not having access to their roster, I don't think one can tell whether the next attack is the same FB or not, further complicating things. Perhaps if there is only one or two of them this is quite easy?

There isn't anything you can practically do with estimates on what ammo a plane has left. You go and adjust based on that estimate and planes that haven't made a pass show up. I'm not looking for a lean core, I'm looking for a fast and flexible one. Infantry on foot may suffer less of a risk of air attack, but they face other risks instead. Replacing one risk with another has to have more going for it than just that. Being dismounted still isn't a guaranty the units won't get hit by aircraft. I've had infantry strafed before. It's not as likely if there are bigger, more visible targets around. All things considered, I would rather the airstrike go for a loaded half-track than a tank.

(P last) No I have scouts. I said they're "combatively" useless, not that they're useless totally. With Gerry anyway, I carry a scout section and an AC section. Scouts become more interesting if they carry some form of satchel charge, as indeed some of the USSR and Finn ones do; later for Germany I guess. Besides, now that you know more clearly my secondary reason for having something in core, they could fit into the category of being there to soak up just time in the core promotions for a later blossoming in hard times. With such a large map, that's not very wise though because their main purpose is to recon. I frequently lose one or two of them, and unlike some of my infantry that I might be a little protective about, since they have currently little to no weaponry, therefore my main purpose with units neglected for the time being (exp gained by combat through the core) without useful weaponry, is to use them more boldly in doing their job, which I if I have any sense, will be for them to fire little or none at all but just very forward. IOW, if a unit has a front line duty of sorts, and has no real combat value, then they're more expendable. But it's hard to really expend them, even if you want to, when you're trying not to fight with them.

Seems to me that keeping your more valuable units from stumbling into an AI kill zone is a very noble task. Let me ask you this, do you artillery observers stand on the line with your infantry and trade shots with the enemy or do you use them? Technically speaking, they aren't necessary as company and battalion zero units can call in artillery and they are armed like scouts. They don't have to be in your core and neither do scouts, but both perform their mission better if they gain experience. Scouts infiltrate better and FOO artillery response times lower. Both of these aspects make your artillery more effective and that does kill.

As for pnzrfsts being useless for them, I was referring that only to what I would think is their secondary role, attacking rearward guns. We only got on the subject because I entertained your idea of dropping airborne scouts in the rear, otherwise my scouts would probably never be sniffing around back there. BTW, I know you can't cover everywhere with everything, and we usually think of the flanks as not being overrun, so pnzrfst scouts in the role you described could be fine, but I think you would agree that, if you could, you're much better off stopping AFV's in that situation with full squad pnzrfst capable units, not scouts.

Well, scouts can either act as intelligence gathering assets or as fighting scouts, where they seek out valuable targets. A panzerfaust team has more shots to work with, but are smaller and less likely to survive an infiltration move. The scout team is larger, but generally a one shot deal. I have had scouts without panzerfausts destroy tanks before. In those cases, they were accidents where the tank tried to run over an unseen scout. Even without panzerfausts, they have uses beyond just scouting. Once you infiltrate the AI position and you have artillery hit an anti-tank gun, artillery position or what have you and the crew begins to run, the scout can engage them to make sure they don't come back. They also can move into the hex of the abandoned gun and destroy it to make sure it can no longer be used. Every battle eventually reaches a stage where there is no more useful scouting to be done. That's where these other tasks come in handy.

No, don't even go the unarmed unit track with me, as obviously they have weapons (they just die far too easily once they're spotted). I'm not too aware of their stealth getting to the rear, and I would question why they would want to get as close as 2 hexes from enemy infantry and then peel back. Can't they see the infantry before then? I would think that moving to that second hex away, and then peeling back, if on the same turn, would have them spotted for all that close movement, LOS still being the same. I seem to have mine spotted far too easily against allegedly somewhat inferior infantry, but they're still not useless in my book nonetheless.

Scouts spotting ability, and that of all units, depends on it's experience. Sometimes, I've spotted entrenched infantry at 3 hexes. Other times at 2 hexes. This is for assault missions only. You can spot at a greater range on other missions. I don't keep getting closer when I spot the enemy, but just stop for the rest of the turn. If artillery is available, I may call it in that turn or wait until the next turn. It depends on how quickly it will hit. Next turn, they start pulling back. You can't move their full movement or they will be spotted. They should have one or two turns to pull back to a reasonably safe range from the artillery before it hits. If an FOO can't see the target, the artillery may be off target so this has to be taken into consideration.

Your scout should survive this whole process, except maybe your own artillery, for a couple of reason. If they are part of your core, they will be more experienced and this will allow them to spot the enemy units at more of a distance. In a campaign, the AI units you are spotting are typically national average experience. You have the edge here. Scouts are small units (size 0) and hard to see, even when moving.