From the mouth of Aristotle

[Arryn]

Zen said:
Unless IW needs the stickies managed, I don't think I will.

I have "claimed" the AAR and links stickies (I haven't actually updated the links one yet), and Liga's taken the mods sticky. The rest are up for grabs.

Not to begin with the (inevitable) pestering (and to head off everyone else's questions on this subject), but are you planning to release those two (new) guides you had been working on? If you need assistance with editing or anything, just let me know. Else, if your time doesn't permit you to finish them, could you send what you have of them to me and/or Liga so that we (or whomever) can pick up where you left off? (I trust you still have my email address.) BTW, if while you were away you updated any of your other docs or maps, please send them to me, at your leisure, so I can update what I host on my site.

Oh, and once again, welcome back. Did I say I missed ya? (some things are worth repeating)

[Kel]

I don't know what's evil, but I know what I like.

- Kel

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Not if the man is gay . The most prominent example what can happen then is hitler

Hitler wasn't gay. Amongst his many psychological flaws, he appears to have enjoyed being abused and degraded by women (in private), whom he then had murdered later on (couldn't allow anyone to know he's sick and perverted). I'll leave out the details of his perVersions. BTW, Hitler married Eva Braun hours before his death, in case you've forgotten.

[Ivan Pedroso]

Welcome back Zen

johan osterman said:
Now all we need is Norfleet and everything will be back to normal again.

Hahahaha I'm inclined to agree.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Hitler wasn't gay. Amongst his many psychological flaws, he appears to have enjoyed being abused and degraded by women (in private), whom he then had murdered later on (couldn't allow anyone to know he's sick and perverted). I'll leave out the details of his perVersions. BTW, Hitler married Eva Braun hours before his death, in case you've forgotten.

Well it isn't important but Hitler was gay . Lothar Machtan wrote a 400 page long book about this were he gathered info and proved that Hitler was gay .
This is a main reason why he wanted always to become an artist because in that time only artists were allowed to be gay .
He probably even had an "affair" with Röhm .
But as politician this was at that time a No-No and so to hide this he murdered Röhm and made laws against Gays .

Eva Braun was only "camouflage" for the public .

[Arryn]

Roehm was gay. Hitler wasn't. Hitler despised gays. It was one of the reasons Hitler ordered that Roehm be shot once Roehm's usefulness was at an end.

Machtan is in a very small minority where it comes to historians' opinions concerning Hitler. To the best of my knowledge, no other reputable historian has agreed with Machtan's carefully orchestrated conclusions.

A few small details that might interest you:

Himmler had an extensive dossier on Hitler. And from 1943 on, Himmler was debating how best to remove Hitler and save the Reich (and assume control himself). Had Hitler been gay, Hitler's inner circle would have had him killed immediately (and used his homosexuality in addition to his mismanagement of the war against the USSR as justification for their actions). If not Himmler, Bormann would have done it.

Had Hitler been gay why would he have bothered to marry his "window-dressing" just before he died?

Hitler had at least 3 girlfriends prior to Eva. Hitler was no more capable of keeping the details of those affairs secret than he was of keeping any alleged homosexuality a secret. Especially when he had plenty of sharks swimming around him looking for any chance to strike at him and thus rise in power themselves.

BTW, I've been studying history, in particular Nazi Germany, for about 35 years and I'm still considering doing my Master's thesis on this subject.

[Gandalf Parker]

Of course I got to welcome Zen back when he requested I reinstate his login but I will add one here (so nobody thinks Im all snobbish or something)

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
so nobody thinks Im all snobbish or something

You? Hardly. Least of all with a moniker like "Gandalf".

[Boron]

Arryn said:
BTW, I've been studying history, in particular Nazi Germany, for about 35 years and I'm still considering doing my Master's thesis on this subject.

Wow cool . I have history as a hobby and especially world war 2 is one of my most favourite areas . I am most interested there though in the military history .

The book of Machtan is iirc quite new ( 2000 or 2001 ) . Unfortunately because Hitler was so evil research on Hitler's private life was a taboo for many years and when Machtan wrote his book a lot of contemporary witnesses were dead already .
But during world war 1 and some years after Machtan had still so many examples that he prove i think good enough at the time he wrote the book ( he said that unfortunately some contemporary witnesses were e.g. in prison until e.g. 1980 and asked questions by historians but nobody asked them if hitler was gay and when he wrote his book they were dead already ) . Nonetheless i think his numerous examples are enough to prove it .
But future will hopefully bring even more clear results pro or contra .

When he became more popular then ( ca. 1928 + ) he concealed his sexuality very well then and when he was in power he eliminated most of those who knew his little secret .


Do you have more info about that dossier from Himmler when he started to make it or a source where i can read it ?
Göring was another of his companions who wanted to replace Hitler .
I think the problem of both but especially of Himmler was that he was not very liked in puplic . And Hitler had iirc always named a successor if something happens to him who never was Himmler .
And Himmler + Göring had both a lot of power and both wanted to become Hitlers successors so perhaps they decided to wait for the "endsieg" and get rid of Hitler after that by an assasination . Especially for Himmler since he was the chief of the Gestapo too iirc that should have been easy . This is just my personal speculation though and i would love to hear your thoughts about these speculations .

Arryn said: Had Hitler been gay why would he have bothered to marry his "window-dressing" just before he died?

Well this was only a few hours/days before he suicided . It was one of his Last in vain tries to glorify him and to conceal that he is gay .

He often said he is married to germany and can't care for a woman too . Iirc he never introduced Eva Braun to the public too and only after the war begun his inner circle who was with him on the "berghof" knew that Eva Braun was his "girlfriend" .

And there was a niece of Hitler who made suicide because she was in unhappy love with Hitler too .

Arryn said:
Had Hitler been gay, Hitler's inner circle would have had him killed immediately (and used his homosexuality in addition to his mismanagement of the war against the USSR as justification for their actions). If not Himmler, Bormann would have done it.

Göring was responsible for the disaster against the soviet union a lot too . With Himmler i am not totally sure but i guess he didn't get much fame too .
And a bit later Hitler made him i think it was called "Reichsfeldmarschall" but Himmler failed there catastrophically too .

But you are very right : If Himmler had such plans in late 1943 after the disaster of stalingrad and the failed counter offensive at kursk the opportunity for him to get rid of Hitler + Göring would have been quite well .
The question is why he didn't do that .
Perhaps he feared the chaos that would have happened then probably and perhaps even led to a civil war .
Only some days of chaos without one clear leader would have been perhaps enough for the Soviets to exploit this and break through the front and encircle large parts of the east armies .
I think during a war it is very hard to replace a dictator and become the new dictator .


A grim sidequestion : Who of these 2 do you think was even more evil and insane : Stalin or Hitler ?

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Nonetheless i think his numerous examples are enough to prove it .
But future will hopefully bring even more clear results pro or contra .

I have a book that asserts, and quite well-reasoned I might add (which includes detailed forensic evidence), that Hitler did not commit suicide (he was shot by an SS officer), and that the body alleged to be that of Eva Braun wasn't her, but someone else (Eva likely died attempting to escape Berlin a day or so later, and was never found in the rubble). I mention this because that book is at least as "thorough" as Machtan's book, yet that author, too, seems alone in his conclusions. One book, no matter how "good" it may appear, does not constitute "proof" of an assertion. Especially if other experts in the field fail to agree with the assertions.

Boron said:
Do you have more info about that dossier from Himmler when he started to make it or a source where i can read it ?

I'll see if I can dig up something for you Online. The actual dossier is, no doubt, buried in a top-secret vault in either the U.S. or Russian archives. The only "evidence" to its existence are the numerous people who knew Himmler quite well and who have alluded to it over the years.

Boron said:
Göring was another of his companions who wanted to replace Hitler .

Not really. But Goring was a highly decorated WW1 officer who thought Hitler was more-or-less inept (which Hitler was) and Goring's ego pretty much assured that he thought he could do a better job. Which he couldn't, as the Battle of Britain and Stalingrad's relief proved beyond any doubt. Though Goring couldn't have done worse than Hitler, either. (It's very hard to imagine anyone doing a worse job of managing the war than Hitler did.)

Boron said:
I think the problem of both but especially of Himmler was that he was not very liked in puplic .

Goring was actually popular. Himmler, OTOH, most assuredly wasn't.

Boron said:
And Hitler had iirc always named a successor if something happens to him who never was Himmler .

After the Hess fiasco, it was Bormann. At the end of the war, Hitler actually named Doenitz as his successor.

Boron said:
Especially for Himmler since he was the chief of the Gestapo too

The Gestapo chief was actually Heinrich Mueller, who in turn reported to Himmler.

Boron said:
And a bit later Hitler made him i think it was called "Reichsfeldmarschall" but Himmler failed there catastrophically too .

Himmler was "Reichsfuhrer SS", a unique and higher-ranking title (in essence, a "six-star" rank).

Boron said:
But you are very right : If Himmler had such plans in late 1943 after the disaster of stalingrad and the failed counter offensive at kursk the opportunity for him to get rid of Hitler + Göring would have been quite well .
The question is why he didn't do that .

Himmler's almost schizophrenic mindset on the subject of Hitler. On the one hand he adored Hitler and had immense personal loyalty to him. On the other hand, the cold, calculating part of him knew that Hitler had to go. In between, Himmler's fear of what would happen to him should Hitler find out that he was plotting against him. Days before the war's end, Hitler did find out and ordered Himmler's death, after stripping Himmler of all his titles and offices.

Boron said:
A grim sidequestion : Who of these 2 do you think was even more evil and insane : Stalin or Hitler ?

That is a VERY tough call. Stalin (by far) had more of his own people killed than all the deaths that Hitler caused. But (syphillis aside), Stalin was more ruthless than he was outright evil. Hitler, OTOH, was genocidal. And demented. And perverted. I'd have to pick Hitler.

Saddam Hussein is in the same league as Hitler, BTW.