Germany OOB 16: miscellaneous comments

[Pibwl]

After a longer break, I'll write down a limited number of more important or easy to fix things from my notes (which are not very extensive ):

34 Sturmtiger - used from 8/44 in suppressing Warsaw Uprising [now 1/45]

86 8.8cm PaK 43 - photo shows Pak-43/41 on wheeled mounting (unit #205), while this gun was on cross mounting, as the icon shows - could be photo 208.

131 7.5cm Haubitze - FK18 entered service in 1938 only and was very rare gun (only 124 made according to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,5-cm-Feldkanone_18 ) - it is worth to replace it with FK 16nA, used since 1930, and still 298 were in 1939 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,7-cm-Feldkanone_16. There is no early German artillery available otherwise.

The latter one had range 12.3km (now 200, proper for FK18)
The photo could be replaced eg. with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm...ch%C3%BCtz.jpg
The icon is the same as 10.5cm leFH - could be 2127 for FK18. In case it is changed to FK16, it should be single tail, eg 2112 with appropriate long barrel

155 Kfz 70 Protze - icon is green and with transversal benches, while this is platform truck.
Protze icons are 3038-3040, like unit 453

220 Pueppchen - icon should be single-tail - shape fits to 8017 (possibly it was dedicated one?)

275 FJg LMG Grp - possibly there should be LMG as a weapon instead of MMG?


304 15.5cm Batterie - it is Polish sFH-17(p), same as French 155mm Schneider C17S howitzer sFH-414(f), but the photo shows French heavy 155 mm cannon. I've found C17S in German service: https://forum.axishistory.com/downlo...5411&mode=view and https://forum.axishistory.com/downlo...7327&mode=view from https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...?f=70&t=135963

387 JPz I - it is available since 1/41, but they entered combat in May 1940 in France (possibly available from 4/40).
Formations start from 4/40, while the earliest unit #480 starts at 6/40.

Most sources use Panzerjager I name (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerj%C3%A4ger_I , Waffen-Arsenal https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PANZERJAG...-/142979957157 ) - seems, that Jagdpanzer meant armoured vehicles ("panzers").


388 PzKw II C - photo has markings from 1939 (and shows no additional armour), while the unit is from 1940 and has additional armour - it could be swapped with unit 002


417 Panzerbuechse - photo doesn't seem to be Mauser, rather PzB 39. Maybe previous photo 25583 is better. Same for units 634,643 (sw) Inf Gruppe

420,421 FJg PAW ..cm - the name might better be changed to LG (German designation), not PAW
Better icon is 2107 (for the lighter one at least)
Same for 505,506 GebJg PAW

464 PzKw 38H 735(f) - maybe a better photo is former 27506 with short gun? (photo 828 has long gun)

481 SdKfz 10/5 PaK5 - 5cm Pak was used since the end of 1940 only [now 7/40]


502 MG08 HMG (2) - the picture doesn't look German, nor MG08. 2338 is good

622 PzJ Bren(e) PaK - photo has French 25mm gun, while it is supposed to be 3.7cm Pak
Might be: https://aw.my.games/sites/aw.my.com/...83517/37mm.jpg

733 MG248(p) HMG - caliber of captured Polish Maxims was 7.92 (not 7.62) and they were exactly German MG08. I would say it's useless, but it's one of four MGs used by Ost troops in the game, and they have no MG08 otherwise. Maybe it should be just MG08?
(designation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...n_World_War_II )

792 MG248(p) HMG - seems completely useless. Same as above, but the picture is on Russian wheeled mount (should be 3884 eventually). Poland indeed converted some Russian Maxims to wz.10/28 model, but they were 7.92 mm, and all were sold to Spain before the war, so they couldn't have been captured. It is used in OrPo units, which have 7 MGs to choose from, including MG08.

734 MG249(p) HMG - a caliber might be added (7.92)


831 SdKfz 221 - photo has early white crosses, more adequate for early unit 67, while it is available from 1942.

902 Me 410A-1/U-4 - a photo with 5cm gun is
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/85...a900d4ff69.jpg

[DRG]

Błażej , I think you have greatly overestimated my desire to add every trivial development in armour and aircraft into the game. Yes I have added a few oddballs in the past. That does not mean I have any plans to expand on that. Things that actually made it into combat maybe but certainly not these

This is what the mods forum is for.

[Pibwl]

Few remaining notes:

9 PzKw III G 5cm - version with applique armour should have also 30+30 armour at the hull rear (the same as later H) [Jentz].

BTW: according to Jentz, "starting late in 1940, some PzKpfw III G" had applique armour - maybe 11/40 would be safer combat entry date [now 10/40]

10,11 PzKw III H, J - I'm not sure if they shouldn't have SD, like other Pz IIIs of that period

584 PzKw IIIG 3.7cm - first were completed in March 1941 [now 7/41] - presumably they were available in May or June (not much improvement over III F anyway, apart from 30mm rear armour).


489 7.5cm Geb IG 18 - picture is ordinary leIG, and mountain variant should have twin tail icon. Photos of mountain variant are rare, possibly only here https://www.quartermastersection.com...mle.Geb.IG%208 However, it's better to replace it with with classic Czech 7.5cm GebK 15 (Skoda M.15), which was basic German mountain gun (eg. from Romanian #132 75mm Mtn Gun).

According to Polish article on German mountain artillery, Geb IG 18 was designed only in 1937 and produced from 1937/1938 (now 1/32). But only 95 were made, and it was rather lousy weapon. On the other hand, a few Skodas were a leftover from WW1, used for training of mountain artillery (from 1/30), and several hundreds were acquired later, starting from Anschluss in 1938 and occupation of Czechia and Yugoslavia. Its range 7 km (or even 8200 m according to other sources) was twice as big, as Geb IG 18 (3300 m). They were also used by paratroops until Crete landing. From 1941 they started to be replaced with 7.5cm GebG 36 (range 9.2 km), but they never were completely replaced.

BTW: I see now, that this gun in Czechoslovak OOB (weapon #33) has much too low range 60, while in Romanian OOB it has 165.
In Slovak oob there is howitzer with weapon #33 with 165 range and #32 75mm vz.15-IG with 60 (is a smaller range of IG justified?).

BTW2: Yugoslavian OOB obviously should not use #322 75mm Geb IG 18 after the war, but popular Skoda instead, either from pre-war stock or Italian variant booties. Yugoslavia also used these guns before the war (captured in 1941 by the Germans as GebK 259 (j)) - maybe it should be added as pre-war pack howitzer as well? (currently there is only #320 65mm pre-war pack howitzer, I don't know if it was used).
Also #321 75mm Mtn Gun would be the captured Italian variant and therefore its weapon should be named 75L13 instead of 75L17 (Italian designation was 75/13).

I think that's all this time.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

BTW: I see now, that this gun in Czechoslovak OOB (weapon #33) has much too low range 60,

You didn't bother to look at what it was being used for. If you had you wouldn't have asked that question. One is being used in an AT role and the other is a DF infantry support gun. Same applies to the Slovak

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

You didn't bother to look at what it was being used for. If you had you wouldn't have asked that question. One is being used in an AT role and the other is a DF infantry support gun. Same applies to the Slovak

I've seen it before in Czechoslovak oob - but I treated range 60 as incorrect for howitzer/mountain gun use, and I didn't think, that we could create two separate weapons. By the way, I recall I've found usage of this gun as a stop-gap ATG on Czech pages.

Only later I looked at Slovak OOB, which has two weapons, but here the gun with range 60 is IG, not ATG.

[DRG]

and 60 is acceptable for a DF infantry gun or a weapon used in an AT role that is intended for direct fire only.

And yes there can be two ( or more ) versions of the same weapon / gun for different purposes. It's done many times in the OOB's. 66, 79 and 80 are all 152mm M-10's in the Russian OOB but we do NOT give direct fire only guns the range indirect fire guns get. That has been true since day one and it's not going to change

In the above example, 66 and 79 are used by two versions of the KV-2. One is the DF tank and the other the indirect fire-capable SP arty unit. 80 is the version used by the regular arty. There is no difference between 79 and 80 except the name because two decades of dealing with nit picking over minutia like this has taught us that using a "FH" version in a tank generates "error" reports.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

And yes there can be two ( or more ) versions of the same weapon / gun for different purposes. It's done many times in the OOB's. 66, 79 and 80 are all 152mm M-10's in the Russian OOB but we do NOT give direct fire only guns the range indirect fire guns get. That has been true since day one and it's not going to change

I'm far from suggesting it I only explained why I didn't think about AT usage, focussing upon too small howitzer range. And in case of Slovak OOB, the one with smaller range is IG, hence my doubt (very slight, in brackets). I think there's no need to continue, you are obviously right as for AT guns.

[MarkSheppard]

Any chance of the Me 321 glider in the Blue German OOB overflow section?

Three main reasons:

1.) Ordered for Sea Lion -- can kind of squint and use in a "1941 Sea Lion" scenario.

2.) Deadliest aviation disaster until 1960 -- 4 plane crash killing 129, of which 120 were troops in the Me 321 during testing.

3.) Withdrawn from Eastern Front for use in Operation Herkules, invasion of Malta; but never used when that was cancelled.

[DRG]

The 'problem' is aside from a series of planned missions that didn't happen and being involved in the above-mentioned aviation disaster. It was never really used in a capacity related to the scope of this game.

And yes there are aircraft lurking in the game that have similar stories but I have considered and rejected adding this at least once before because to keep it to the scale of the other gliders in the game it would be 160% larger than the Hamilcar which is already verging on being too large for the game map and the encyclopaedia and purchase screens and finally, this thing was not intended to be flown directly into combat unlike the ones in the game now. This is not something anyone would intentionally fly into a "hot LZ"

So..... not really interested even as a "challenge"

[blazejos]

Icon's for Me232 are already done in this set

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51060





Meaby they are not exactly in scale which will be satisfactory in size to others big gilders like Hamilcar but fit to size of aircraft icons

They were also planed to be used in air landing near Baku to support Caucasus offensive 1942 and to support Stalingrad. Both this operations never happens like this described before.
I think this Big gilder deserve his place meaby in Blue OOB because all this operations were might to be use were cancelled but there was one where they where used in battle
Sea and air landing Operation Beowulf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Beowulf in 1941 on Estonian islands Saaremaa, Hiiumaa and Muhu. There according to book published in 1973 in Polish People Republic "Bitwy Morskie" [Sea Battles] after fall of small island Muhu attack start on biggest island in archipelago Saaremaa there in 13 of September 1941 were two air-landings of German paratroopers in the middle of island to attack defenders of island on eastern beaches from behind. One unit was in power 500 men and second around 100 and this bigger was accompanied by small number of Me 321 gilders which take heavier equipment (probably AT/artillery guns with tractors)