priests spells?

[Pocus]

"My point is that the situation where the caelian weapons is an advantage is less common than it was in dom 1. "

yes. but 10 x 5 and 5 x 10 gives the same result.

Less occurences, but stronger impact when it happens.

but I knew you had your mind set on this

Can I ask for the Relief and howl spells now, where they modified a bit?

Relief is cheap, and basically allow the mages on the battlefields to cast spells without leftover fatigues for the first 5 rounds (if you have some 2-3 nature mages, like druids).

Howl is problematic, not because of the wolves attacks, but because of the not so intelligent targetting of friendly mages. They will cast nether darts on a nearby wolf, killing 4 comrades in the process.

[ September 23, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Pocus:
I knew you have your mind set on this

Can I ask for the Relief and howl spells now, where they modified a bit?

Relief is cheap, and basically allow the mages on the battlefields to cast spells without leftover fatigues for the first 5 rounds (if you have some 2-3 nature mages, like druids).

Howl is problematic, not because of the wolves attacks, but because of the not so intelligent targetting of friendly mages. They will cast nether darts on a nearby wolf, killing 4 comrades in the process.

Targeting AI is improved I think this is true of the spell targeting AI as well. I'll have to get back to you on that though.

[Pocus]

I edited my post Johan, couldnt resist to put a Last ditch counter argument for Caelian weapons. Feel free to be angered

From previous discussions I know that doms II AI is better at targetting as many problems were revolving around that, so I think the howl problem is somehow fixed by this.

For reliefs, well lets say that less druids (in doms II if I recall) = less reliefs I suppose.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jasper:
Interesting. How have you changed the "strike back" effects?

-Jasper

In dom 1 the strikeback effect would set in before the attack was resolved, meaning that weaker troops often would not get a chance to land a blow before they died or where stunned. Now hordes of weaker creatures can land their blows even if it kills them in the process. We also thoguht about adding a small fatigue penalty after each strikeback but we will wait and see how this works out first.

---

Interesting as well.

This will especially weaken Fire Shield and Medusa's stoning, as huge hordes can attack such foes when their damage shields kill attackers (where you are usually limited to only adjacent attackers).

I hope you're carefull with adding a fatigue cost, as even 1 fatigue per strike back will make the shields unusable (at least under Dom 1 mechanics).

Actually, what's always bugged me here is that huge hordes of foes can attack damage shielded foes at all (stepping over mountains of their comrades bodies). Why not change damage shields to kick in after all of a sides units have moved -- so that only a limited number can attack someone with a damage shield each turn. This would weaken the effect of damage shield, and seems more believeable.

-Jasper

[ September 23, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: Jasper ]

>My point is that the situation where the caelian weapons is an advantage
>is less common than it was in dom 1.

I'm sorry for this naive question but could this effect be linked to the temperature too, like ice armors ? Exemple : if your caelians fight in a +2 or +3 cold province, they get "magical" sharpened weapons. But if they fight in a warmer climate (say, cold +1 or warmer) their lances do ordinary damage only. Just a suggestion (it could be like that already, I dunno).

[Daynarr]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. You can't just fly to enemy commanders or magic Users and kill them with ice swords simply because there is no longer command to fire or attack commanders or magic Users. Best thing you can do is order flyers to attack rear troops, but they will attack troops - not commanders. So I see no problem with Caelum at all - they are much weaker in Dom II.

Their ice swords are good against nations who use air magic (like Vanheim or Man) but nations like Ulm or Marignon are their worse nightmare, especially if Ulm player uses Drain 3 domain. In fact, Caelum gets their behind kicked regularly by those two nations.

Also, Caelum has ground troops (non flying ones) that act as heavy infantry, but they have ice armor that is even better then Ulms in Cold 3 province, but is like light armor in Heat provinces, so heat affects their armor, not weapons.

[Nerfix]

Well, the Air Magic-C.W relation is that Air Magic offers Air elementals with the dreaded etherealness, and C.W's tear trough etherealness.
But since..*rant about how all elementals cost gems and that you need to keep bringing the gems to mages and have big piles of them because the mages will use them for something stupid like removing fatigue or casting Wrathfull Skies instead of summoning elementals, even if you have scripted them*, that propably won't be so much of a problem.

The magic weapon-drain scale relation must be something new...

Oh BTW, did you know that wards cost the same as in Dom I but only protect part of your troops?

[ September 24, 2003, 14:26: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Pocus]

yes, and that the battlefield Version still exists (to my displease I would say). Just hope its a level 8 spell, needing 400 fatigues at least.

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by Pocus:
I dont know who does not understand the other. Perhaps thats both of us. Caelian weapons are nasty because they pass etheralness. I dont care if my mages cant be attacked directly, because most often than not your etheral units are not your mages, but either seasonal spirits, or in case of astral nations any big unit which would receive a body etheral from a mage (a shaman, witch hunter, whatever). As of now you could help tremendously your units by casting etheralness on them. Except that against Caelum your are toasted.

Misunderstandings happen, that’s why we can talk - so we can understand each other better.
Just don't take any of this as some sort of assault on you because it is not. I'm just trying to clarify this question since I'm able to see the end product and give you accurate info on some of its specifics.
Here we go.
You can help your troops tremendously if you cast some other spell as well. You have zounds of spells with earth magic that increases protection and magic resistance of troops, nature spells that improve both resistance and protection, fire spells that will hurt attackers (and do some major damage on the battlefield) etc. So I really miss a point here. Why would I rely on etherealness spells against Caelum if I know that Caelum weapons ignore it. I'll use some other protective spells and summons who are far more effective then seasonal spirits. All it requires is change of tactics and there are some even cheaper and better methods of protecting your troops. Etherealness is just one of possible protections (and not even most powerful because earth magic surpasses them by far in that area). So these weapons don't unbalance the game, they just make you use different tactic.

I dont understand the relationship between the ability to bypass etheral, and air magic or a drain scale. Can you elaborate?

I didn't point out a relationship between bypassing ethereal and drain, but relationship between Ulm and Caelum in which Ulm doesn't care about Caelum Ice weapons (they could use rocks and sticks for all they care with their armor), doesn't care about flyers who will only get killed faster with their weak protection and their only weakness being magic which DRAIN reduces significantly. Ulm and some other nations are perfect example how these weapons don't affect them and thus there is no reason to say they are "overpowered".

Yes, this is already there in doms I. Ice armor effectiveness depends on heat. Also they have Wingless or Temple Guards, which are an hell of a soldier. For example 4 temple guards kill 12 fall bears in neutral temperature. Try to do that with 120 gp worth (in doms I TG cost 30 gp apiece) of any other units, be it Emerald Guards, Knight of the Holy Chalice, Warden, or what ever you want. You cant surpass TG, just because their caelian weapons is the insult which add to the injury.[/qb]

They have wingless who are no better then standard light infantry (hp 9 prot 10) and excel in only slightly greater morale. Temple guards are good but cost 20 gold and 43 RESOURCES and can be produced only in main castle. You won't see much of them simply because you cant produce lot of them. Also they have 18 protection in normal temperature that is nothing special comparing to other heavy infantries that can be produced both faster and in other castles as well. Their ground force is not so powerful as a result but at least they have it (don't get me wrong, they are good). And again you put an example against spirits, which are by far not the only summons or cheapest summons or most powerful summons. I don't know how it was in Dom I but here they don't play large role in battles. If there is major battle I will use more powerful summons like Tiamat, Kithironic Lions or swarm you with weaker cheaper units that don't consume supplies (magical or undead).

have problem finding the explaination logical. In essence you are telling us that Caelian weapons are less an advantage, because the targets where they could apply their supremacy (compared to other weapons) are more potents but less numerous (because costlier). I would say that his render the problem at least as acute as before.

I think the problem with "misunderstanding" start somewhere here (bolded text). Where did you read that they are more potent? They just cost more so you can't swarm the battlefield with them and forces you to use other units, summons and spells in combat.

[ September 24, 2003, 15:38: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

[Nerfix]

Tiamat?
Dominions I had spell "Voice of Tiamat", but you speak about a summon...