tholians

[Pax]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
The main sequence of ships is very nice. They 'sort of' resemble the only example given in the series, but not too closely. Some of the 'supporting' series like carriers are a little odd, but I guess it's hard to be creative with a single starting idea.

Giving them Crystalline Technology was a natural choice, of course. If only there was a way to simulate the Tholian Web... we can only make them research and use tractor/repulsor beams for now.

Further information on Tholian and Neotholian vessels (and their general configurations, shapes, etc) can be had in SFB products (SFB = Star Fleet Battles; several artists renderings should stil be available, scattered about the website for that game, at the Star Fleet Battles Official Site ).

Several 3D models of Tholian vessels can be found here: SFB Miniatures

Specifically, the Tholian PC ("Patrol Corvette", analogous to an SE4 Escort), CA (Cruiser), DN (Dreadnaught), NCA (NeoTholean Cruiser), and NDA (NeoTholian Dreadnaught).

Oh, for the non-SFBers out tehre: the Tholians aren't native to our galaxy, they're refugees from anotehr one ... they WERE backwater polliticians there. The Neotholians are a remnant of a full Naval squadron that managed to also make the crossing, some years later.

Though the link is unavailable, I do see a listing for a color-paint guide, which would give a good image of colors involved on some of the hulls folks might be unfamiliar with. The individual hull links -do-lead to color-scheme listings.

SFB hulls are based on allof the TV shows, the first filmor two, and the cartoon series (hence being able, legally, to use Niven's Kzin -- he HIMSELF wrote them into a couple episodes of the cartoon, heh).

If folks want, I can dig out my old SFB stuff, then see about borrowing use of a friend's scanner, and thus send a representative sample of the ship types used in "canon" SFB 9where the Tholians have had the best, most thorough treatment).

All the above said ... I've not yet looked at the shipset myself (about to remedy that). Ergo, the above is not meant to be taken as a criticism of Oleg's work ... just a pointer at additional resources for visual data WRT naval vessels of the Tholian Holdfast.

[Pax]

Having viewed teh shipset now: Oleg, nice ships, but ... they're -not- Tholian, at least not as a dedicated Tholian/SFB purist such as myself would accept them. Sorry.

The ships are nice in their own right ... but ... *shrug* ... they just don't say "Tholian Holdfast" to me.

Images of miniatures (sculpted, physical 3D models), though small and a -bit- hard to see properly, can be found here: SFB Catalog Tholian Miniatures .

Note how the CA (second listing form the top, the left-hand ship) is -basically- two smaller ships, welded mostly side-by-side. The right hand ship in that same image is the NCA, a Cruiser of the NeoTholian squadron.

The Tholian PC is the basic ship of the entire line -- the one based directly on the TV episode the Tholians were first featured/mentioned in (there have been others, though usually they're only vague/roundabout references ).

Just to clarify, SFB classes proceed (from smallest to largest):

PC ... Patrol Corvette / Police Cruiser
FF ... Frigate
DD ... Destroyer
DW ... War Destroyer
CL ... Light Cruiser
CW ... War Cruiser
CA ... Cruiser
BC ... Battlecruiser
DN ... Dreadnaught
BB ... Battleship

If you examine the image for the CW + PC set, you will see the War Cruiser is essentially two PC's, one stuck op the other's backside, then welded in place.

So if you're interested in building a "Purist's Tholian Shipset" ...

[PaladinOfEarth]

PAX,
Thanks! for the links. I have about 20 un painted miniatures.
Hm, Play SE or paint ships.
Any suggestions?

[oleg]

After reading the stormy discussion about Gorn ship set, I believe my Tholians insulted quite a few trekkies. Therefore I am inclined to make them some other race and never ever again touch anything ST related. Please vote what should I do: keep them or change ?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by oleg:
After reading the stormy discussion about Gorn ship set, I believe my Tholians insulted quite a few trekkies. Therefore I am inclined to make them some other race and never ever again touch anything ST related. Please vote what should I do: keep them or change ?

Don't take it too seriously Oleg. All this stuff is made up anyway. The Tholians and Gorn are two extremely MONOR races form TOS. The Tholians had one ship, and IIRC we never even got to seeee the Gorn ships even once. So everything else since, ie Star Fleet Battles is just something someone else made up anyway. It just so happens they made it up before you did. That doesn't make it any more correct than yours.

Besides, who says we can't have more than one of these shipsets floating around. There are 5 or 6 Federation shipsets by my count. Noone is claiming theirs to be "official".

So, don't take the critics too seriously. Have fun making your shipsets. And know that they will be used and appreciated by somebody, that's what counts right?

Geoschmo

[Captain Kwok]

Oleg:

I actually thought your shipset represented the Tholians quite well. The translucent colouring and faceted look are exactly what I would expect from them. Don't get discouraged by a few minor complaints/whines - it's what Star Trek fans do best.

[Pax]

Originally posted by oleg:
After reading the stormy discussion about Gorn ship set, I believe my Tholians insulted quite a few trekkies. Therefore I am inclined to make them some other race and never ever again touch anything ST related. Please vote what should I do: keep them or change ?

Nonono ... don't give up on ST races. You don't have to change your shipset either.

That's not the sort of response I wanted to provoke in folks who make shipsets; with you, you evenmentioned some SFB details (the use of multiple smaller hulls to make larger ships), and Iw anted to point you at further resoruces for future refinements ... along the lines you'd already chosen for the set, and/or if you wanted to evolve the set closer to an SFB look.

They don't say "Tholian" to me, but it's still a good shipset, and there're plenty of Trekkers out there who're less of a purist than I am WRT how such and such a ship type might look.

And oleg ... I'm a FANATICAL Tholian fan. We're talking, foaming at the mouth rabid fancritter where the Tholians are concerned (gotta love the Neotholian's Webcaster ... *drool*).

And your ships don't insult me. Fall short of what I might have created n yoru place? Well hell, man, anythign that wasn't 100% accurate to SFB would do that ... if it was off by one pixel!

Keep the ships. Maybe make a future revision that uses some of the SFB resources I pointed you to (I'd like that, of course!). But don't toss 'em in the recycle bin just because one extremely vocal member of the comunity spoke up about his dissatisfaction with current shipsets based on established SF races ...

Please!

[Fyron]

SFB isn't canon, so ships don't have to look like what SFB ships look like.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by oleg:
After reading the stormy discussion about Gorn ship set, I believe my Tholians insulted quite a few trekkies. Therefore I am inclined to make them some other race and never ever again touch anything ST related. Please vote what should I do: keep them or change ?

It's a nice shipset. Keep it. If you are concerned about 'authenticity' then make another set based on the SFB images. You could call the SFB based set Tholians and call your first set something else, and give them a backstory about being the race from another galaxy come to get the Tholians!

Apparently the 'backstory' for the Tholians is that they are refugees from another galaxy where they had an empire and enslaved other races. When the plebes rebelled and started to slaughter the rulers, some of them gathered up some ships and fled. And arrived here.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
It's a nice shipset. Keep it. If you are concerned about 'authenticity' then make another set based on the SFB images. You could call the SFB based set Tholians and call your first set something else, and give them a backstory about being the race from another galaxy come to get the Tholians!

LOL, those would be the Seltorian Tribunal. 8) I don't have images or SSD's for their ships though, sorry.

Apparently the 'backstory' for the Tholians is that they are refugees from another galaxy where they had an empire and enslaved other races. When the plebes rebelled and started to slaughter the rulers, some of them gathered up some ships and fled. And arrived here.

Specifically, the Tholians in the Trek / SFB galaxy were backwater oliticians and rural police, whomoved their system -- yes, you heard right, the WHOLE SYSTEM, which was a Dyson Sphere (think Sphereworld) -- across from the Tholian Old Home Galaxy, to here. They've resisted the urge to initiate a war of conquest ... because they're laying low, trying not to attract the attention of their former servitor-races back in the Home Galaxy; the Klingons dislike them because the Holdfast occupies what was once a fringe province of the Klingon Empire ... but the Tholians excel at defense, so ...

During the Great War, when the Holdfast itself (their "home" system, the sphereworld mentioned above) was threatened by the combined Coalition forces (Klingon, Romulan, and IIRC even some Lyran Star Empire ships were present), the "NeoTholians", remnants of a Tholian -Naval- squadron, arrived on scene ... saving the day, as the Coalition forces weren't able to adapt their tactics rapidly enough to counter the new technologies (largely Webcasters, and -true- warship hulls and designs) the "Neo" Tholians brought with them.

Well, the Alliance fleets (Federation, Kzin, Gorn, perhaps a Hydran expeditionary fleet) there to assist helped too, but it was the NeoTholians who truly turned the tide of battle.

...

Later, the Seltorians did track down the Trek-galaxy Tholians, arriving on a mission of total genocide; various Alliance fleets managed to destroy the Tribunal fleets, but that's a bit of Tholian history I'm a bit fuzzy on (I prefer pre-Seltorian era Tholian ships, myself).