SPWWIII next edition of games series?

[zovs66]

I am strongly in favor of not getting NATO involved it’s none of there business and would only escalate things much worse than it already is.

[DRG]

Agreed but they are already hip-deep in this publically sending arms to Ukraine. The whole thing is a mess but totally flips what must have been seen to the Russians as unacceptable that Ukraine might join the EU which would be the stepping stone to NATO and now potentially puts Russia's armed forces on the border with the EU.

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by DRG

Agreed but they are already hip-deep in this publically sending arms to Ukraine. The whole thing is a mess but totally flips what must have been seen to the Russians as unacceptable that Ukraine might join the EU which would be the stepping stone to NATO and now potentially puts Russia's armed forces on the border with the EU.

Latvia and Estonia already border Russia directly. Poland and Lithuania border it sort of indirectly with Kaliningrad (separated from Russia like Alaska and Hawaii are from US and Cabinda from Angola). Main differences are eastern Ukraine used to be part of Russian Empire as well as Soviet Union and Kievan Rus is claimed by Russia, Belarus and Ukraine as their cultural ancestor.

My guess is Russia will gobble eastern Ukraine to the Dnieper River while installing a Russian puppet in Kiev and western Ukraine. NATO will not intervene; now Ukrainian President calls the West "weak and insecure." Which IMHO describes Zelensky himself. He deliberately provoked Russia by publicly expressing a desire to join NATO, thinking it would bail him out. All Ukraine suffers for his ill-advised gamble.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by jivemi

Latvia and Estonia already border Russia directly. Poland and Lithuania border it sort of indirectly with Kaliningrad (separated from Russia like Alaska and Hawaii are from US and Cabinda from Angola). Main differences are eastern Ukraine used to be part of Russian Empire as well Soviet Union and Kievan Rus is claimed by Russia, Belarus and Ukraine as their cultural ancestor.

My guess is Russia will gobble eastern Ukraine to the Dnieper River while installing a Russian puppet in Kiev and western Ukraine. NATO will not intervene; now Ukrainian President calls the West "weak and insecure." Which IMHO describes Zelensky himself. He deliberately provoked Russia by publicly expressing a desire to join NATO, thinking it would bail him out. All Ukraine suffers for his ill-advised gamble.

That's like blaming a rape victim for their clothes.
Disgusting.

That's it, keep finding excuses to support or ignore Putin. Because if one thing is for certain is that appeasement works.
If Putin succeeds, let's all wait and see who the next target will be, directly (Putin), or indirectly (inspired by Putin).

Let's hope decades later people won't be wondering how the West didn't see this coming, how and why they didn't intervene when there was still time.

I will tell you one thing though, it certainly has given me a new way of looking at the appeasement of Hitler.

It will also be interesting to see how the proliferation of nuclear weapons will proceed.

Meh.

[jivemi]

He asked for it. Whatever an echo-chamber West says it's "weak and insecure" as a flummoxed Zelensky complained. Taking out Putin will not change the fact that Russia will not tolerate Ukraine as a NATO member. Neither will feel-good virtue-signaling. Any Western intervention now will risk WW III. Period.

Incidentally how many countries not remotely on USA's border have been invaded or intervened in during the past half century with perfect impunity? A training film from the 60's informed us "Joe Trainees" that America was justified in its global projection. "Not 'might makes right' quoth the narrator, 'power RESERVES the right.'" And so it goes. Welcome to the human condition.

[DRG]

As I have said before "It's complicated". That's the reason there are differing POV as above

The ONLY innocents are the children and there are false narratives being spread on both sides but it does appear that a Zelensky leaning Ukraine toward the EU and perhaps as a "future" NATO member is viewed in Russia no differently than Russian missiles in Cuba were viewed by the US nearly 60 years ago.

i.e. "intolerable"

That would, as I have already stated in another post, put a NATO nation border less than 300 km from the Volga. If I were Russian I would be a little more than just "concerned" about that.

[DRG]

A continuance of above .. perhaps a reminder...why we are at where we are at today

These are all the nations that have joined NATO in the past 23 years ( I think I have them all )

Hungary (1999)
Czech Republic (1999)
Poland (1999)
Estonia (2004)
Latvia (2004)
Lithuania (2004)
Slovakia (2004)
Romania (2004)
Slovenia (2004)
Bulgaria (2004)
Albania (2009)
Montenegro (2017)
North Macedonia (2020)

The ones in dark red were all Warsaw pact members or part of the Soviet Union and the first WP member state to "Join" NATO was "East" Germany when it and "West" Germany rejoined in 1990 and The Warsaw Pact dissolved a year later


Every one but Russia are now NATO nations.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by DRG

A continuance of above .. perhaps a reminder...why we are at where we are at today

These are all the nations that have joined NATO in the past 23 years ( I think I have them all )

Hungary (1999)
Czech Republic (1999)
Poland (1999)
Estonia (2004)
Latvia (2004)
Lithuania (2004)
Slovakia (2004)
Romania (2004)
Slovenia (2004)
Bulgaria (2004)
Albania (2009)
Montenegro (2017)
North Macedonia (2020)

The ones in dark red were all Warsaw pact members or part of the Soviet Union and the first WP member state to "Join" NATO was "East" Germany when it and "West" Germany rejoined in 1990 and The Warsaw Pact dissolved a year later


Every one but Russia are now NATO nations.

Yugoslavia was never a part of WP. Albania left WP in the 60s.
How many of the Warsaw Pact members willingly joined WP and how many had no choice?
From all the former Warsaw Pact members who joined NATO, how many of them did it on their own because of how much they were worried/hated USSR/Russia?

NATO was always a defensive organization, still is (as long as it's not about Turkey threatening Greece) and the countries mentioned above all despised the USSR/Russia and yes the WP.

If NATO approached countries and forced them to join NATO yes that would be an issue, but that's not what happened.

Regardless, nothing is actually relevant with the current invasion and war of Ukraine. Not WP, not Cuba, not Antarctica. It's just an excuse as clearly was shown with the 8000 word speech given by Putin about the invasion when NOT ONCE was NATO mentioned. Instead he tried and still tries to ignore the mere existence of a country of 40 million because he wants to swallow it into Russia.

I don't know how some people find excuses for this war. Disgusting.

[DRG]

A west leaning Ukraine is obviously and geographically seen as a threat to Russia by the Russians.

There are a number of ways to defuse conflict and threats that do not involve armed force. Putin choose to ignore those alternatives and go straight to war which puts this all on him and his advisors.

The "potential threat" does not justify the actions that have been taken which among other things is a total violation of the Budapest Memorandum to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine when Ukraine transferred its inherited Soviet nuclear weapons to Russia for decommissioning.

However, the threat that a potential NATO Ukraine would appear to be in Russia should not be ignored when pointing fingers. It is not an excuse for the war though it appears to be a factor that is being ignored as it seems to be at least one of the reasons we are in this mess

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by DRG

A west leaning Ukraine is obviously and geographically seen as a threat to Russia by the Russians.

No different than the US seeing any country in Central or South America leading towards the East (aka Russia/China) as a threat...been that way since the 60s to the current day.