Conceptual Balance Mod 1.83 released!

[Jarkko]

Not just 2 banes, but 2 banes with axe of hate and quickness. That is one very stunned Grendelkin after round one (and with quickness those banes always get in the attacks first, unless the Grendelkin is protected by an army, and if he is protected by an army then you just rout the army and watch the Grendelkin run).

[NooBliss]

Then some Scratti casts claws of cocytus and your mighty SC goes down the drain.

[Executor]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Not just 2 banes, but 2 banes with axe of hate and quickness. That is one very stunned Grendelkin after round one (and with quickness those banes always get in the attacks first, unless the Grendelkin is protected by an army, and if he is protected by an army then you just rout the army and watch the Grendelkin run).

Exactly. The point is if the Grandelkin doesn't kill them in a single round he's as good as dead.
If he attacks than use a different approach. Instead of 3 mages casting orb lightning, script phantasmal warrior on two of them to keep him busy and within range and have the third cast aim + orb lightning, or something similar. And yes, I have tested orb lightning. With as much as 5 militia scattered in groups of 1, but within range, 2 orb lightning mages can fatigue the Grendelkin out, they can't kill him, but than you use something else.

You're not gonna send the air mages alone obviously, even if you teleport you can still spam chaff to keep him busy.

Water Elementals will certainly kill the Grendelkin if he doesn't have regeneration.

If he has regeneration, than he lacks something else. Again you improvise and use something else. Once more just fatigue him out and send a single bane with gloves of the gladiator to pound him into oblivion.
Keep the Bane at hold 5x and attack so he doesn't get killed while the Grendelkin is active.

If he has a frost brend for example, use visions foe to blind him (use a nature 1 or air 1 mage with an aye of aiming and script eagle eyes, that should give about 20 precision), and than just spam cold resistant undead to keep him company, or some fire elemetals if he has a fire brend, and wait until he routs. Of course this one could only work if you can anticipate his movement as you need to be the defender to use the turn limit, but the trap is rather cheap, a few low level mages, backed by some cheap PD. Even when it doesn't work you don't care. But every time you kill a Grendelkin your enemy will be more reluctant to send a new one your way.

The point is, like any other SC, there is no universal way to kill them. You obverse them and exploit their weaknesses, elemental vulnerability, low MR, anti undead/demon/magic weapons, morale, lack of shields for the bows, etc...
Like I said, the Grendelkins main problem is, he has no magic, he can't buff, he can't teleport so the air drops will always get him (unless you vortex him with a mage), you can't equip him for all elements and give him high MR and make him invulnerable to magic, as you can a Tart E3A2 Cyclpos for example, you can't catch and kill a large army since he moves in regular phase, so his raiding is limited in a way also.

One more easy way to lose a SC, Grendelkin or any other is to put a bane or two with appropriate items in the open on top of a bait army for example. Banes don't tend to be shown in scout information.

I for one would never send a lone Grendelkin out, it takes at least 70 gems to summon and equip one, and there are simply too many ways you can lose him easily I might add.

[Sajuuk]

I didnt say 2 banes with axe of hate and quickness cannot kill the grendelkin, just....they can be killed in one hit, too, and you cant guarantee that your bane will perform the first blow. Perhaps give them jade armor and winged shoes. But if grendelkin have winged shoes too and is the defender, or if there's something blocking the way, They are still not safe. And the other problem is you cant expect everytime your bane can successfully intercept grendelkin since they can't teleport,two isolated bane are excellent target for mind hunt or ghost rider- two ghost riders can be the death sentence for anti-sc like them.

And....dont keep talking about orb lightning plz.....It is practically impossible to keep a sc within a range of 15 for long time....phantasmal warrior is good meat shield, but they will surely move forward to engage grendelkin, if they can block grendelkin from moving forward(which need a lot of A mages), then no such thing "within range" before your mages rout, and if they can not block, 1 or 2 orb lightning are far from enough to knock grendelkin unconscious within 2 or 3 turns. In optimized occasion, phantasmal soldiers just keep grendelkin SLOWLY moving forward, then when grendelkin finally reach in 15 range from bottom line, your poor mages are surely already unconscious first. same problem for militia who can only hold 2 turns or even archers who would move into its 30 range first. You can always use your A9 pretender to knock unconscious a grendelkin with one hit of orb lightning, though. But I would rather use 5 or more air mage cast lightning bolt, which have more chance to knockout grendelkin should one of the mages cast phantasmal army....Then the only problem is these mages will very likely become victim to seeking arrow or earth attack.

Yes if you send enough elementals to a grendelkin without regeneration, he's probably doomed. The problem is, why dont give grendelkin regenaration? They have 240HP, which means 10%regeneration will regenerate 24HP per turn, plus their high protection....no need to waste a misc slot for ring, a hydra skin armor is enough since higher protection armor provide little improve on its already high protection. Or if you have N bless, a shroud of the battle saint is a better choice.

Your next suggestion is....well, as I said before, arrow trick is useless if grendelkin have a shield. If it is dual wielding, as I said at the first place, a blinded grendelkin can still crush 40+pd of ashdod....While such trap can kill a normal sc, it can only rout a grendelkin, meanwhile isolated mages wandering outside castle and dome are really in great peril.

Like I said before, I never say grendelkin are unbeatable, just....too hard to beat compare to other sc, seems the easiest way is max its fatigue, yet how to made it before it kill you is still a problem. I try to teleport adon upon a grendelkin with dual axe of hate and winged shoes, but he died before even move: a S1 mage stand behind it(also buff it ethereal) win a magic duel.

And I don't think send a sc like grendelkin into a whole army is a good idea. Use them as heavy raider, backup with S mage, and you won't want to play guerrilla tactic with him...If further backed up with earth attack/seeking arrow/ghost riders, you won't want to set trap everywhere

Yes you can manage to kill a grendelkin, but combine with the failed trying, the price are very likely exceed that of grendelkin, or even twice. Thats why I suggest increase the price of grendelkin.

[Fantomen]

We all understand what you're saying Sajuuk. The thing is many of us have fought and killed many Grendelkins in a plethora of different ways. Personally I don't think they're overpowered at all, just a good summon.

I found Wendigos just as useful, both great mages and SC:s. If you plan ahead for their growing they have a lower opportunity cost since you can use them in peacetime as well.

Consider the possibility that you simply need some more practice against Grendelkins, rather than them being overpowered.

[Executor]

@ Sajuuk,

I apologise, it indeed seems Grendelkins are immortal and can't be killed.

[WraithLord]

Based on my own personal experience with EDM summons I'd say that Grendelkins are well priced for their value.
A thing to take into acct (that was mentioned here) is that EDM summons tend to have some roles in which the excel and others in which they sub-perform. So when weighing their price it's important to amortize all the aspects, good and bad, weak and strong points. You can't say that X is OP just b/c you had the bad luck to meet it when it's on "upper ground" (or favorable conditions).

[Sajuuk]

Fantomen:
Well, actually I have killed quite some grendelkin,too, especially in massive battle. Just...it's so hard to hunt down a raiding one since many method became useless

Executor:

Oh, of cause not, how can they be unbeatable, even half a dozen size 4 air elemental can kill them, or some undead in darkness, right?

WraithLord :

I made this conclusion partially by comparing it with other 2 (almost)pathless sc summons: marble oracle and iron angel, both are 20E in cbm. Comparing their utility, it feels like a grendelkin worth at least two of them, thus keep reducing grendelkin's price to 35W may make it underprice.....

[earcaraxe]

intermission in the grendelkin argument:

is there any plan to reintroduce some kind of blood stone-like booster in CBM? it got cut because of its generator ability, but i miss them very much as E boosters.

[Soyweiser]

It has a e4 one. But it is a bit hidden. And it replaces an old artefact.

#selectitem "Boots of Antaeus"
#mainlevel 4
#name "Ring of Earth"
#constlevel 6
#secondarypath -1
#copyspr "Precious"
#type 8
#descr "This ring is forged of metal from the deepest reaches mortals have ever ventured. The ring aids in the use of earth magic, and will heal and reinvigorate the wearer, but at the same time they will feel the weight of mountains drawing earthward."
#armor "Curse of the Earth"
#end