Unkillable aircraft!!!

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
I see,
So I gather then that it is actually "easy" to decrease airstrike spotting from a coding point of view?
All that remains is to establish wether it should be done or not.
Maybe you and I are are talking about two different mission types. Im talking about the mission where the ground FO calls in the plane to hit the enemy armour concentration hes identified in just the same way as he would call in an artillery strike. In both cases the information flow is one way. You may be talking about the "roaming" fighter bomber looking to identify its own targets. I think the roaming fighterbomber isnt really within the scope of the game as the maps arnt large enough. Opperating as close to the front line as it must to stay on these "small" maps he is just as likely to straff his own troops as the enemies, or get hit by friendly AA.
So I would think that most of the missions called in the game are Fo controlled and hence require no spotting ability from the airstrike plane. Assuming the target can be kept in FO sight.
I agree that the airstrike planes do need some spotting ability to pick up vehicles near to there targets or ones that may have just moved out of the FOs view, but I think they need less spotting ability than they now have, ie currently doubling as recce planes.
Another point I would add is that as pointed out by Deputy bombs are very inaccurate. For fighter bomber bombs there is probably an equal probability that the bomb will land in the hex before or after the target hex or even the hexes on either side of these, as on target.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Another point I would add is that as pointed out by Deputy bombs are very inaccurate. For fighter bomber bombs there is probably an equal probability that the bomb will land in the hex before or after the target hex or even the hexes on either side of these, as on target.
Best Regards Chuck.

We have already established that the aircraft in the game are not carrying "death ray bombs and rockets" and "Deputy" has already retracted his comments. Ordnance dropped and fired from aircraft already do frequently land in the hex before or after the target and it's not unusual for them to land two hexes on either side of the target.

Don

[DRG]

Deputy said:

I do have 2 questions concerning hiding from air power and spotting planes.
1. Spotting planes... If I have my units in trees, do spotting planes still "see" them all the time?

2.Is it even worth pulling off a road and hiding in trees to defend against air attacks? Or does any overhead plane "automatically" see every unit below them?

It's very simple and better to test this yourself. Set up a test game where both sides are human, ignore the requests for passwords but you will have to save the game in a save slot. Set up player two with some units in the open as a test but set up others in the best concealment you can find then set up player ones spotting aircraft and airstrikes based on what you already know about P2's disposition ( attack areas with AND without enemy units ) then watch what is revelled when the airstrikes come in so use as big a map as possible so none of P1's ground units can see any of P2's units. When the air attack is over and the game goes to P2 you can check what you saw during the attacks against what the actual dispositions were then end P2's turn and recheck what P1 can now see then run the test a half dozen more times with different visibility and see the results.

Don

[PanzerBob]

Freakin' JABO’s certainly are a pain, as they should be, but accept for bad tactical moves, such as bunching up units too much I've never had anymore problems than to be expected. The only thing that gets me is when the Enemy decides to call in several Sqdns of CAS. They can certainly suppress the hell out of a lot of units. However C'est l'guerre.

LAW’s in the game are nasty up close when they work, that is why infantry support is essential. Remember your vehicle is in a 50m hex so a frontal hit could be just as easy a track or vision slit. If I lose a panzer to a bazooka team I’d be hard pressed to counter it by moving another panzer in to counter it. Infantry or suppressing fire with arty or MG’s makes more sense.

Note to Chuck if your spotter planes are doing 500mph no wonder they can't spot anything!


Love this game, Prosit!

[Marek_Tucan]

PanzerBob said:
Infantry or suppressing fire with arty or MG’s makes more sense.

Second that. Especially useful for suppression is "Z-fire", IE blind area fire into a given hex. works well even if you don't have a direct LOS (say blocked by smoke or by wreck), if you mass enough units to that task - MMG/HMG units are good at it, ESPECIALLY those with three weapons

[chuckfourth]

Hi Panzerbob
I am talking about fighter bombers flying at 500mph not spotter planes.
Spotter planes have a different problem, their photographs have to be returned to HQ developed made into maps etc, so spotter planes IMHO dont really belong in the game. I dont mean airiel FOs, which I believe the game doesnt have because of playbalance issues. The same reason I dont like the fighter bomber spotting ability.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Marek_Tucan]

Atleast US troops in WWII made extensive use of light AOP aircrafts not only for arety spotting but also for frontline recon, the aircrafts being in direct radio contacts with units on pretty low level - online spottzing, no need to take and develop pics.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
Very interesting would you be able to expand on what a low level unit is?
The problem is obviously that enemy units spotted by Light AOP can easily turn out to be friendly and wont appreciate being fired on by there own arty etc. A commander at a "Low" level cant check the spotted units identity. you may as well send the info to someons who can, divisional staff.
Though in the game every unit knows everything on a battlefield you are a brave or a very well informed man to deviate from the plan. Or jump in with an "opportunity" attack.
All these things are normally coordinated from a higher level, the divisional staff, which is where I imagine all ariel recon is planned from and feeds its information into.
Best Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi DRG
My apologies I am indeed sounding like a troll, bomb ordinance does miss and often. I stand corrected.
I also did a small test you may be interested in.
I mobhacked a sturmovic to carry 16 rs 82 rockets, with no other armamant and fired them all at 20 pz 3 spaced out one hex apart.
Now I got 48 hits from 320 rockets and this may be a big underestimate as the yellow message doesnt seem to refresh properly after a hit, so I discounted consecutive hits unless the little nearby "pen comparison" white message changed.
That gives a hit rate of 15.0 per cent the reference I sited in my origional post says this rocket has a hit rate of 1.1 percent, so maybe RS82 and possible other rocket accuracies are a little high?
Best Regards Chuck.

[Shan]

I believe that - considering all the arguments brought up - planes should be left as they are. AA guns may need improvement but this would have to include all autocannons so better leave them alone too.

Planes can be painful if they're turned against you. It depends a great deal, however, from which direction you're being attacked. If it's a frontal attack a tank will only be immobilized, which IMHO is reasonable if a bomb explodes close by, while even cannon shells can be lethal if they hit your rear. Also, the AI always seems to find great targets and blow up my loaded trucks, ammo dumps, etc... just my bad luck.

On the other hand - if I heavily bet on air and buy a squadron, I am almost always disappointed- if I use them carefully I get no effect and if I let them overfly the rear zone even the AI will get some of them down with massive AA... so I'd only buy a few and use them carefully, as well as take advantage of the spotter effect.

And yes, flak seems to be quite ineffective. First thing, rookies dont hit anything - but if you've ever tried to operate a manually aimed AA gun and tried to track an aircraft coming in low + fast then you'll understand... Only after gaining veteran status during long campaigns they become a little more useful and might even hit+disable something - but hardly ever shoot down. (And veterans dont build up quickly either for towed flak units - how do you get them making kills without getting them killed? Expose them to direct or indirect fire and they're gone).

Its the mass that counts. Playing the Soviets, for instance, I dont buy 37mm AA any more, I go for cheaper 3xDshK AAMGs to cover the whole area with them. If a unit fires, it has 3 shots... you can do the maths. Damage is less but the 37mm also doesnt shoot down a lot with 1 hit - I'm satisfied if the damn planes dont gome again anyways.

While in WinSPMBT, 2-4 radar-controlled guns 'deny' the whole airspace to helos + are a serious threat to planes, manually aimed guns are a different matter. You will need several batteries to cover that same map and still get a lower hit chance. I experimented a lot and have never been able to completely 'deny' a certain map area to enemy plases, which is quite easy to do in MBT.
Also, they're really relatively ineffective against infantry in the open (even if infantry is moving)- might score some damage once in a while but all said, not much better that a MMG or HMG squad. I tend to use SP flak to soften up the hordes of infantry but it's a risky job - you have to keep out of range and the effect is small... but as I said, this is true for all autocannons so changin that is kinda impossible.