does religious *need* the talisman?

[PvK]

BTW, does War Shrine stack with Events Predictor?

[Gozra]

In the hands of an experienced player the Talisman can be very tough. A solution I propose (and very easy to implement) is make the cost of the Talisman higher about 5000 for minerals, organics, and radioactives may be just right. I would say that in a developed game the talisman is almost indestructable.

[Despotic Fiend]

I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

I do like the idea of replacing the Talisman with War and Death Talismans and making new levels of the religious tech. Consider War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate SHRINES as planetary effect facils I-II(Religious Tech 1-3) and War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate TEMPLES as system effect facils I-III(Religious Tech 4-6) With War and Death Talismans of three seperate levels made vaialbe at levels 4-6 of Religious Tech. I think that would be an excellent MOD idea, but the Talisman as is is just fine for the stock game. The sheer size of the Talisman in comparison to ECM and Combat Sensors means that most people will use the Talisman WITHOUT ECM or stealth armour and thus have a much lower defense bonus, or they will be forced to trade off a weapon or two to keep the defense bonuses. Either way, the Talisman is not an unbalanced tech, it's fine the way it is.

[Fyron]

I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus.

You can get much more defensive bonus than offensive bonus. Something like 40% more (IIRC). So, that 105 bonus to hit (ignoring weapon bonuses) is nullified and overwhelmed by defensive bonuses.

Some people's problem with the Talisman is that it gives a 100% guarantee. Nothing should be 100% guaranteed.

[ January 08, 2003, 01:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by General Enigma:
I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

This is written as if you don't understand how to-hit chances are calculated. If the Talisman were given any bonus, it would be a higher bonus than any non-religious race could achieve, because it is a unique type of component. Offensive and defensive bonuses stack and counter each other, and with the ordinary techs, they balance each other out so that it gets difficult to hit other maxed-out ships without closing to close range, if you can. Meanwhile, unmodded Talisman ships are hitting 100% of the time, probably from range 8, and then moving away at full speed. Even a 10-15% to-hit advantage would make the Talisman worth installing in late-game ship designs.

PvK

[Cheeze]

The Talisman may be unbalanced on its own, but it counter-balances the Religious tech line, which offers nothing in the way of weapons and a fairly small set of bonuses through the shrines. The current size of the talisman very often makes it an early casualty in combat, generally reducing that warship to a non-entity in a battle.

I do like what has been mentioned as new ways of developing ship-based War and Death talisman additions, but I might add one more...a Fate talisman. One that would not only decrease the chances of sabotage against a ship (if that really works for the shrines) but would enhance the defense bonus of a religious ship. While it can be argued that the lack of Religous weapons is a bonus rather than weakness to the Deeply Religious tech, having some kind of shipboard Religious items is a necessary piece to fleshing out this line. Or if a component or shrine could be developed that would automatically, if minimally, damaged enemy ships (in a system or in combat).

Even without the Talisman, I like Religious technology. Perhaps my favorite item is the Nature Shrine. Seeing my resource planets jump 3% every year (particularly when they are large or huge in size, although I really have never seen an improvement in climate), and having those values exceed the 100% mark, makes this shrine valuable in my eyes, and fun to play this technology.

Each special technology has some particular aspect that makes it fun to play or scary to face, that "unknown" factor that makes them just that much different. Crystal has the armor-skipping weapons and the maintenance-reduction facilities. Organic has regenerating armor and the fast production of organic ships. Temporal has the yards and the quad damage to shields weapon. Psychic has the allegiance subverter and the training facilities. The Talisman definitely is that for the Deeply Religious Tech, and if it is removed or modified it must be replaced by something very daunting for an opponent.

[Despotic Fiend]

BUMP!

[Despotic Fiend]

Originally posted by Despotic Fiend:
I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

I do like the idea of replacing the Talisman with War and Death Talismans and making new levels of the religious tech. Consider War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate SHRINES as planetary effect facils I-II(Religious Tech 1-3) and War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate TEMPLES as system effect facils I-III(Religious Tech 4-6) With War and Death Talismans of three seperate levels made vaialbe at levels 4-6 of Religious Tech. I think that would be an excellent MOD idea, but the Talisman as is is just fine for the stock game. The sheer size of the Talisman in comparison to ECM and Combat Sensors means that most people will use the Talisman WITHOUT ECM or stealth armour and thus have a much lower defense bonus, or they will be forced to trade off a weapon or two to keep the defense bonuses. Either way, the Talisman is not an unbalanced tech, it's fine the way it is.

Quoting my own post..... there has GOT to be a rule against that....

OK, what values would one assign to a WAR Talisman? How about a Death Talisman? Also one level of this(just War Talisman, Death Talisman) or THREE.(War Talisman I, Death Talisman I - War Talisman II, Death Talisman II - War Talisman III, Death Talisman III)
I'm working on modding this now so I want input from anyone who is willing to give it.

[PvK]

There has got to be a rule against what?

Unmodded Talisman is 50kT but makes combat sensors redundant (10kT). 40kT less space is not much of a disadvantage in a BC or BB, compared to guaranteed hits. They are very powerful, and IMO only balanced by preemptive/gang strikes from human players.

I don't know if it's actually possible to mod a "death talisman" component, although it could be a mount.

A "war talisman" would I suppose just be a weaker Version of an always-hitting talisman. Personally, I like what I did in Proportions, which was to have talismans start out offering small but unique (and therefore, quite important) bonuses, which increase with further research but also start to get big and expensive, and finally after a really huge amount of research (especially in Proportions where research doesn't multiply linearly with number of colonies), an all-hitting talisman, and after even more research, a more efficient one.

PvK

[rdouglass]

Originally posted by PvK:
...I don't know if it's actually possible to mod a "death talisman" component, although it could be a mount...

That sounds very 'doo-able' except can you make mounts that require a specific tech or tech area?