Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[Dimaz]

The Conway, first of all, thanks for you offer to edit CBM to suit my needs. I'm not a modding guru myself and while I can probably revert mod changes myself if I need it, I will keep your offer in mind. However the problem here, as was stated during gemgen removal, is that most of this (sharapnel + dom3mods) community is attached to CBM and follow it's changes, so I don't think it will be possible to find enough people to play modded CBM game. Besides, many of the 1.8 changes were definitely made to compensate for 1.7 ones, while others are different (machaka ones for example). So deciding what to keep and what to throw is not that easy. That's why I'm going to stay with 1.6 for the time being as it's the most balanced variant imo.
Regarding hammer removal, I think the main reason was that they were no-brainers and so on, while my argument was that they are an important part as an investment tool. In one of my current games I have mediocre e income and good income of other gems and good research, so I reached con8 with only 2 hammers and possibility to forge 20 or so different uniques, including top-tier ones. I had to make tough decisions about spending the gems most economically while also trying to capture most of the arts as somebody else reached con8 a turn or two before me. So I fail to see hammers as no-brainers while they definitely increased the choices I had to make - without hammers I'd just forge everything I can with all the gems I have and that's all.

[llamabeast]

I wonder whether at some point it might be worth making a version of CBM 1.8 which reinstates hammers, and partially undoes the item-cheapening/buffing of 1.8. Personally I think I will use the canonical 1.8, but it would be good if even hammer lovers could benefit from the other changes. The new national spells are fun!

[Finalgenesis]

a masochist version of cbm 1.81 would be welcomed, re-enabling hammer and reversing some price decrease for certain items.

Going through the price decrease list with hammer in mind:

-Amulet of missile prot looks fine at 5A

-Astral serpent can probably stay at 1N, I've never seen it used and there's too many other good misc items competing for slots.

-Staff of corrosion should be reverted to original price, 1w1f staffs is really damn good with hammer.

-Brimstone boots is tough to say, I've used and seen the rare ones at 1e1f, but then it has to compete with quick, birch, messenger and now chi, so seems okay at 1f.

-Elf bane at 1e seems okay.

-Moonblade 1h is good, still kinda expensive at 10S for what it does and const 6, I'd drop it to 5S even, so that it'll actually be used now and then.

-Bone armor can stay D4, D5 was definitely too much.

-Crystal shield should be reverted to 2e2s, I see it (and use it) often on clutch casters already.

-dusk dagger seems alright at 5s even with hammer frankly, as a specific counter to high prot.

-elemental armor looks fine at 1e1f.

-crystal heart probably okay at 1e.

-not sure about stone idol at 1e, I think actual usage in MP will be needed to really see how it pans out.

-Fenris pelt at 2N, seeing as its a low tier unique it doesn't really matter. I'd make it non-unique to be honest, in which case there might be niche uses for it.

-wraithsword looks good at 2D

-ice pebble at 1w const 6 hmmm... not quite sure on this one, I'd say revert to 10W to be safe.

-knife of the damned looks good at 5s.

-pocket ship looks okay at 5n5a.

-phoenix rod looks okay at 15F.

-shield of valor and silver hauberk looks good at 1A.

-spirit helm at 2a hmmm, probably good, 3A was too much.

-summer sword 1n1e looks good, though it may not bode well for wine and cauldron.

-Wraith crown at D4 looks good.

-shield of accursed at 1s1b hmmm... not sure on this one.

-wand of wild fire at F2, I'd say give it a shot.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Stay classy Jarkko. I think you have made your point. No reason to keep calling it names.

Sorry, my intention was not to call any names. Last time I checked the z7 dom3mods forum main page the name "The Cesspit" had been placed at the top of the forums. I wasn't aware it hadn't been placed there by the forum owner (as for some childish reason I still seem to be believe). Many boring people, including me, tend to take written words seriously.

But I'm not sure if QM checks this forum. I think he does. But posting at the other forum does get a quicker reply. (And it makes it easier for him. He doesn't have to search all over the place for bugposts).

I never asked for a reply, but of course I certainly hope he will notice the post in this thread (it is after all the second post here) Like I already mentioned, I should have been commenting the stuff (commenting more strongly and coherently; I've commented on them elsewhere, even in threads QM have posted in, but I never took the effort to really make the point) earlier, and not just hope QM somehow telephatically would become aware of the things. My mistake.


Other than that, I definitively do like CBM1.8. There are bugs and typos in the new spells, but those should be easy enough to fix.

Possession (or however it is written in the mod) is a *very* heavy class spell for LA Ulm (turn a S1 70 gold mage with one pearl to a Dark Vine commander (two misc slots, for example Lucky charm and Ring of Regen) or a Demon Knight commander (full slots and heavy equipment even without any additions). For Bogarus too it can turn crappy old mages into something useful just before they die of old age (for whome it is no use to give boots of youth). For LA Man it is not a very useful spell, hard to figure out something useful that LA Man astral mages could transfer to.

[NooBliss]

Then buff astral serpent so it's worth using, without removing the ASTRAL part from it. Add MR or luck to it (lucky serpent, anyone?). Then it's just an improved amulet of luck or antimagic, which doesnt make amulets obsolete because nature has other uses.
And yes, I do forge crystal hearts in MP, in Kings of Drama, for my most valuable combat caster. Because some of us dont have fire/nature mages. Its a part of the lore - you know, crystal mages who combined earth and astral to create matrixes and hearts. Its a poor alternative, but an alternative anyway and I like it.
Anyway, with hammers still removed and lots of weitd stuff introduced, I guess I'll have to stick with 1.6 when I can.

Oh, and the SDR change, too. I am playing 1.7 now - my MA Abyssia isnt hurt by the lack of SDRs. Well maybe slightly. Other major blood nations will cope as well, I bet. These who didnt have major blood already will suffer... so much for the balance.

[P3D]

And EA/MA Agartha lost their Umbrals thug. In exchange, now their move 1 troops would move through mountains faster, and their NNE troops eat even less supplies in mountains.

Perhaps make Umbrals a commander for EA and MA Agartha (LA won't need it that much).

[TheConway]

Frankly, the argument that the SDR change boned people from diversifying into blood is silly. It simply isn't like other paths where you can get a viable income via bootstrapping. If you don't have recruitable hunters you'll still get enough for your niche utility needs, maybe you'll have to get 1-2 more scouts. Still, if you're not a blood power it doesn't matter anyways since your income would suck regardless.

Niche items like astral serpent, crystal heart, etc. could indeed see some thematic additions to perhaps make them worth their cost. If you want to post them where qm is likely to see them I encourage you to do so.

edit:

And EA/MA Agartha lost their Umbrals thug. In exchange, now their move 1 troops would move through mountains faster, and their NNE troops eat even less supplies in mountains.

Perhaps make Umbrals a commander for EA and MA Agartha (LA won't need it that much).

This is definitely something that should be looked at. You seem to have missed the new national spells though, and darkness with PD.

[NooBliss]

>> Frankly, the argument that the SDR change boned people from diversifying into blood is silly. It simply isn't like other paths where you can get a viable income via bootstrapping.

Not true.
First, there are nations with recruitable b1 hunters; they are hit much worse than these with b2. These, in my opinion, are hardly hit at all.
Second, there are summons like Lamia queen and Asinja, they get b1 quite frequently. Of course, it was a costly way to get into blood, but it was an option. Now it's gone. Bad if you ask me.
And lastly, there's a big difference between 'your income sucks' and 'your income sucks big time'

[TheConway]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

>> Frankly, the argument that the SDR change boned people from diversifying into blood is silly. It simply isn't like other paths where you can get a viable income via bootstrapping.

Not true.
First, there are nations with recruitable b1 hunters; they are hit much worse than these with b2. These, in my opinion, are hardly hit at all.
Second, there are summons like Lamia queen and Asinja, they get b1 quite frequently. Of course, it was a costly way to get into blood, but it was an option. Now it's gone. Bad if you ask me.
And lastly, there's a big difference between 'your income sucks' and 'your income sucks big time'

Those nations with recruitable B1s would be Lanka, Mict, and Van out of the actual good powers IIRC. The first two are the major offenders when it came to blood being OP in world w/o clams. Van I agree has major issues there, and you're not the only one who wants to give them a bit of a buff to compensate. As for the rest, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by P3D

And EA/MA Agartha lost their Umbrals thug. In exchange, now their move 1 troops would move through mountains faster, and their NNE troops eat even less supplies in mountains.

Perhaps make Umbrals a commander for EA and MA Agartha (LA won't need it that much).

I think you're overstating your case--a grand total of 3 of EA Agartha's trooptypes have move 1. They're much more mobile now between that and the national Gateway spell they got. Yeah, Umbral thug loss hurts, but it's not like Agartha's a one-trick pony. I've seen especially EA Agartha win a few games through simply reaching critical mass with their troops, which are darn hard to take down once they get going.

MA is definitely hurt more by the change, though cheaper statues/earlier Poison Golems help counteract that. Also GoR'ed Gargoyle thugs are significantly cheaper now. I mean, it wasn't exactly as if MA Agartha was lacking a thug chassis.

That being said, Umbrals can almost certainly be reverted back to 2 gems now.