Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

[Sombre]

What is causing some friction here is the attitude that it's something that needs a 'fix', as you continue to put it. Suggesting a change isn't the same as requesting a fix.

It seems you can't see the difference, so I'll say no more.

[Edi]

TirAsleen said:
I know all that thanks. Why do you need to feel to post so much education lines?

What do you mean by this? Generally I tend to post things that contain useful information or clarification of an issue.

Your previous post on this subject was formulated as a statement of fact that LA R'lyeh needs to be fixed because it has a problem. There is NO consensus that the current way it works is a problem at all. If there's one thing I dislike, it's imprecise arguments.

The things you have posted as problems are problems ONLY for a particular style of play (e.g. maxing out Dominion at beginning and taking bad scales), while other styles (e.g. lower beginning dominion and/or better scales) work adequately or even well.

When you post the issue as if it were an undisputed bug (such as mind hunt crashing the game under certain circumstances or the Wild Hunt fort switcheroo), it goes straight into bug report territory and I've been tasked with managing that. So in such instances I am practically required to comment on it and make the distinction on whether or not tis can directly be considered a bug, or if it is simply a feature request/wish tailored to the particular preferences of a particular player or play style.

TirAsleen said:
I would hear convincing arguments against it or not. If they are implemented is not my choice at all. But i can post my thoughts of course.

Nobody is denying you the right to post your opinion. Stating your opinion as fact and expecting it to not get challenged, that's another matter. Someone with a different opinion is free to express their disagreement with you here.

TirAsleen said:
They may have not paid as much attention to that particular issue as they have a lot of other work too. So your statements are just assumptions.

My statements rely on a couple of assumptions:

1) That the developers MAY disagree with you. If they do not, then I supopose they will change things as they see fit.

2) That if the developers do not agree with you and do not do anything, the only recourse for change is modding. That is both an assumption AND a fact.

TirAsleen said:
So far, i haven't read any convincing arguments against my suggestions.

What do you regard as convincing arguments? If you already have your heart set on one point of view, namely playing LA R'lyeh with high initial dominion and less than optimal scales, there is little that can be said to convince you because those initial parameters will cause the very things you are complaining about.

Playing LA R'lyeh is feasible if (in addition to having a tolerance for micromanagement) you take lower initial dominion and then take scales that are not as extreme high end as Order 3, Growth 3 and you can still do fine.

Specific counter-arguments:

1)Freespawn having no upkeep at all:

This would allow R'lyeh to mass completely ridiculous amounts of troops for no penalty whatsoever. Ashen Empire has the rather great drawback of killing all of its population very quickly, thus reducing income to 0. Hence Ashen Empire freespawns cannot have upkeep.

Dreamlands R'lyeh has no such penalty if you take high growth scale, meaning that you would max out growth and then have an unending supply of troops you could throw into the grinder without any impact on income at all, allowing you to buy hordes of mages, build forts and always have instant, unlimited (but for starvation), free garrisons. Make some supply items and the limits increase.

THAT would be a big problem for everyone BUT the R'lyeh player.


2) Starspawn and illithids being immune to insanity?

Why should they be? They are highly resistant to it, but that does not mean they should be completely immune. I have yet to hear of a good reason why some creature, similar though it is in some respects to Void creatures, should not be affected by something whose mere dreams can alter an entire world. If you want an analogy, hyenas are generally similar to dogs, but they are not actually dogs or even canines, and a hyena would not be accepted into a dog pack. Similarly, a dog would be torn and eaten by a pack of hyenas, it is not immune to their aggression merely by virtue of similarity.

So why should starspawn be immune to the Dreams of R'lyeh? Why is not higher resistance enough?

[SelfishGene]

Taking Drain or making Anti-Magic amulets help push your Starspawns over MR 20. Starspawns seem basically immune to insanity over 20.

I like the fact the settings you choose in LA Ryleh make a measurable difference in playstyle and management of the insanity. Taking Death-3 or Magic-3 means your nation will start to fall apart much faster; Growth-3 and you hardly lose population, Drain-3 and your units are much more resistant to your Dominions affects. There are few nations where both sides of the scales are viable choices.

[TirAsleen]

1) For many freespawns you need always a very high dominion and it leads to a very high upkeep sooner or later. Except you somehow manage to kill all these spawns off in some battles, but it requires a lot of micro. Scales are not very versatile for LE Ryleh, as you NEED order3 and growth3. If you play with a low dominion it nullifies the advantage of having freespawns as their numbers are too minor, the death and especially insanity disadvantage still lasts. How high should the ideal dominion be for the right freespawn rate, not too few and not too many? And why can't some freespawns cost no upkeep, like aquatic ones, which are less useful? If player manages to take all land provinces, the other player may surrender and there is no need to battle them anyways nor do they pose a big thread overall as they are limited to a few water provinces. Afaik only auqatic commanders can go on land with the amulet of the fish. Problem just is with aquatic freespawns if you do not want them you cannot do much to kill them off and cancel some upkeep, except by slowly let them starve and die. So, if you know a better solution to that one in a high dominion scenario, i would love to hear it.

2) Thats a very good counter-argument with dogs and hyenas, its also why starspawns sometimes have to battle void creatures at the void gate. But technically, its a hassle to deal with insane mages, the starspawns have the advantage to have mages that can be 3000 years old so never will see old age easily or at all. But then again, there is ME Ryleh too without insaness on them and cheap units to control with better control on your expenses and upkeep.

Maybe this thread is more thought of a contest between ME Rlyeh vs LE Rlyeh. I never hesitate to take Ryleh in ME as there are no heavy disadvantages or special scale requirements. That does not mean LE Ryleh is not more interesting to play, though.

[SelfishGene]

You don't need Growth 3, i subbed in a game where Ryleh was the strongest, or near strongest, with Death 3.

Ryleh needs chaff for their Illithid artillery in back.

LA Ryleh does suck in generating water-only freespawns however, they do act as a kind of PD. One funny thing about Death 3 is it helps keep your freespawn numbers down over a long game...

[TirAsleen]

Thanks for the info with Starspawns.

But, magic3, death3 with ryleh? You mean it for (very) small maps?

i usually make bags of wine for the chaff and hordes of illithids. I have no problem if the freespawns starve, but i do not want the more costly ilithidic artillery affected. i usually make a ton of them, so battles are decided in a few turns and enemy units do not even come close.

[Jazzepi]

I honestly think all these problems stem from the fact that there is no way to disband units in the game, which is a huge oversight.

I can't remember having ever played another strategic level game that didn't have a command to disband units when there is an upkeep model in the game. I love strategic warfare games, I've been playing Civilization since it was on DOS, Colonization, Master of Orion 1-2 (3 was awful). All of them have upkeep effects in their games, and all of them allow you to disband units.

I had a vaguely similar problem messing around with Turmoil 3 EA Pangea in SP. The freespawns off the Pans, the beserker chicks, ate me out of house and home! Everyone in my capital province started to starve even with growth 3 and I had to micro manage moving the freespawns in and out of the capital just so that they could starve to death in another province. What a waste!

I think Ryleh's problems with upkeep and freespawn would disappear if you could just disband the useless water based aquatic ones instead of having them destroy your economy.

Jazzepi

[SelfishGene]

It was Glory of the Gods, i think, not a very small map, though not the largest either.

I'm not saying you should take Magic-3 Death-3, only that these options have both benefits and drawbacks.

[TirAsleen]

Just no upkeep for aquatic freespawns would help too, they still eat up everything...

Panagea ME also have the problems with Pans summoning girls taht just eat up a lot of food supplies. Even without any turmoil added. Just finished such a game. You should see when you move them all with bag of wines and how many longbows kill some hundres in few turns from distance. But its a good way to cancel upkeep and supply needs.

[Gandalf Parker]

Part of it might be that Rlyeh plays the way Rlyeh is meant to play. As per the Lovecraft novels (or how Kristoffer interprets them). That might not be the most balanced and playable for those who dont play in an RPG mode.

Some improving of the nations might be possible without damaging the theme, and some improving of the themes might be possible without damaging the playability of the nations. But its probably more effective to take for granted that the way things are represent what the devs had in mind therefor what we offer will usually be in the forms of suggestions or requests rather than fixes or bug reports.

But hey, thats only worth considering if someone actually wants the change to happen. Otherwise you can take the tack of some people here that "my facts need no diplomacy". I havent seen that work very well but it seems to make some people happy with themselves. No particular person is being pointed at but since I seem to be accepted as one extreme I might bring up nearly all of my requests for the game did make it in.