A simple thank you

[Richard]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Arryn,

Morrowind and HOI are not niche games in the same way Dominions 2 is. HOI is wargaming lite, Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both. Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mattered to be good at the game. A traditional publisher would have advised Illwinter to take BOTH out of their game to reach a larger audience.

We have done the research, and yes I know Brad Wardell very well. In fact we have talked in the past about doing some of the very same things he is doing with his drengin network (now totalgaming.net). But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable. Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

And again we can't do both like Spiderweb for the reasons I stated above. It is either one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

Yes retail IS the enemy of niche products and complex games. In fact it is the enemy of PC games. PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement. We have intentionaly turned away retail offers from numerous companies based on our research on how retail affects your product line and profits. We also were in retail at one point with some of our previous titles (pre-Shrapnel) but we learned how bad retail is for most developers the hard way.

[Arryn]

Despite the fact you're just being snide and sarcastic, which is not only unlike you, but bebeath you, I'm actually going to bother replying to each point.

Gandalf Parker said:
Arryn you are such an expert on everything.

Envious?

Gandalf Parker said:
But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Wrong demographic. Other than that, why not? Dom 2 isn't resource-intensive so it should actually work on that hardware. (No need to answer, my reply is a rhetorical comeback to your sarcasm.)

Gandalf Parker said:
Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

Nah. Screen's too small.

Gandalf Parker said:
I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

No need. The free press from CG and CGW is more than enough.

Gandalf Parker said:
And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

AOL can afford to do that since they charge more for service than almost every other ISP in the US, and with economies of scale, their incremental costs are neglible compared to mom & pop ISPs, which would be the ISP equivalent of indie game publishers. If IW was as big as Bioware they might well be able to afford to stuff free CDs in the gaming magazines. But if IW was that big, they'd also be able to afford a UI programmer ...

Gandalf Parker said:
Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Given the unit counts for something like Dom 2, comparisons to Microsoft or EA or Sony are pointless. Go back to valid comparisons like Stardock or Spiderweb.

Gandalf Parker said:
Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast.

The point of doing research is twofold, first to see what those who succeeded did right so you can emulate them, and second to see what those who failed did wrong so you can avoid those mistakes. You do not do research to justify fear of failure. And it's fear of failure that you're using as a stick to beat back questions of what's preventing the emulation of success.

Gandalf Parker said:
What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing.

No, Gandalf. That's not what I asked. I didn't ask why they aren't doing X (which Richard has already answered several times). I asked what's preventing them from doing X. A subtle, but important difference. I was trying to understand whether Shrapnel's not doing something is due to lack of resources, internal politics (or some other reason that they might not wish to divulge), since the reasons being given do not make sense to me when I scratch beneath the surface of them.

Richard made general statements and I cited specific examples to the contrary. That's elementary debate and logic. He made claims and all I'm doing is asking if he can back his claims up. I realize that he's not obligated to "prove" anything, but if he's going to bother to try to do so, then his "proof" should be able to withstand objective scrutiny.

[NTJedi]

Richard said:
A retail publisher? Yeah that would be great...

Here's what we can expect.

A rushed product to meet retail deadlines (ie full of bugs and dumbed down).

Develop and finish the game... then find a publisher. During the time before release provides more Q&A testing.

Many gamers don't trust buying anything Online and will never get the game if the game can only be purchased Online. I'm only suggesting the developers should find a way to get their game into the local stores otherwise there are thousands and thousands of gamers they will never reach.

[Gandalf Parker]

NTJedi said:
Many gamers don't trust buying anything Online and will never get the game if the game can only be purchased Online. I'm only suggesting the developers should find a way to get their game into the local stores otherwise there are thousands and thousands of gamers they will never reach.

Actually I think there are local retailers who carry it. And if you know of one you want to carry it then have them contact Annette.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
Despite the fact you're just being snide and sarcastic, which is not only unlike you, but bebeath you, I'm actually going to bother replying to each point.

yes lately I am quite unlike me on the forums.

Richard made general statements and I cited specific examples to the contrary. That's elementary debate and logic. He made claims and all I'm doing is asking if he can back his claims up. I realize that he's not obligated to "prove" anything, but if he's going to bother to try to do so, then his "proof" should be able to withstand objective scrutiny.

But you are comparing to people like StarDock. Unless stardock releases their software, or sells it as a package, and makes it clear what it takes to do what they are doing, then you are asking why they cant create what stardock created?

Im not knocking Brad for the accomplishment of StarDock but it was (and still is) a pretty big risk on his part to create a system for managing software downloads, credit cards, and serial IDs. Have you used it? Personally I find it abit obnoxious and would not want to have a Version of such software loaded on my system for every company that I want to buy products from. Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

If they were going to drop what they were doing and write a web package Id rather see a generic PbEM site since Ive not been able to find one I think that might even be marketable.

[Arryn]

NTJedi said:

Develop and finish the game... then find a publisher. During the time before release provides more Q&A testing.

Fine and dandy if the developers can afford to up-front all the development costs, including the market research to properly design the game to begin with so it's something Users will actually want to play, and for internal testers so that Users can actually play the silly thing.

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
Im not knocking Brad for the accomplishment of StarDock but it was (and still is) a pretty big risk on his part to create a system for managing software downloads, credit cards, and serial IDs. Have you used it?

Yes, I have and continue to do so. BTW, other companies do downloads (for business apps), but I didn't mention them because they are Windows-only downloads that require IE6, and they aren't games.

Gandalf Parker said:
Personally I find it abit obnoxious and would not want to have a Version of such software loaded on my system for every company that I want to buy products from.

IIRC, you aren't forced to.

Gandalf Parker said:
Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

That'll be a long wait ...

[Graeme Dice]

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail.

It might be available at retail stores, but Last time I hear anything Stardock hadn't yet seen any of the money from those sales.

[Arryn]

First, Richard, thanks for your replies and for taking the time to make them.

Richard said:
HOI is wargaming lite

Careful. Did you intend to post flamebait for all the HOI fans that play Dom 2 (of which there are many)? HOI is no more "wargaming lite" than SE4 is a lite 4X game. HOI is a grand strategic wargame. Just because the scale is large doesn't make it any less of a wargame given all the work HOI's devs have gone through to try to model the setting for the game. Also, HOI and Dom 2 are both strategy games, and both are of comparable complexity. They just aren't complex in identical ways.

Richard said:
Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both.

It is. Complexity isn't measured solely by the user's interaction with the game. What's going on under the hood counts too. But I'm not going to debate this further with you as it's a tangent to the main point.

Richard said:
Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mastered to be good at the game.

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

Richard said:
But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable.

Thanks for this answer. May I ask why? Specifically, how is it that some other companies (such as Spiderweb) can make it work? What I'm trying to understand is what's different about Shrapnel, or IW, or Dominions that prevents it from being viable?

Richard said:
Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

True. But GalCiv is profitable nonetheless, and they have succeeded in doing what you'd claimed couldn't work. But I don't mean to rehash that. Now if you tell me that you cannot replicate their download method because Stardock subsidized the manhours that went into making (and maintaining) it using the income from their non-games, that I'd understand. Assuming that Shrapnel was open to the idea, though, would it be feasible to *license* their download technology so that you needn't reinvent the wheel?

Richard said:
PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement.

Which has to do with demographics of the buyers of most games, and the cost-savings of creating (dumbed-down) console games as opposed to costlier PC games (which typically have an older and more demanding audience).


Thanks again for your replies and for your time.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:

That'll be a long wait ...

Really? It shouldnt be. No longer than it took for the other packages to appear. Shorter if any.