is aircraft worth it?

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Hmmm, i think aircraft is worth if you use them the right way, obviously you need luck, but it doesn't play a major if your tactics are good,shell the enemy possible AA emplacements just before the strike IE, buy arty first, then aircraft, so that howitzers fire before aicraft expose, use SEAD, if the enemy has average AA, if good SAMs expected, get more SEAD,and some mortar to kill manpads

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Hmmm, i think aircraft is worth if you use them the right way, obviously you need luck, but it doesn't play a major if your tactics are good,shell the enemy possible AA emplacements just before the strike IE, buy arty first, then aircraft, so that howitzers fire before aicraft expose, use SEAD, if the enemy has average AA, if good SAMs expected, get more SEAD,and some mortar to kill manpads

Very good advice CaMpWiThAWP.
Always buy artillery before aircraft, so it fires to suppress air defenses just before a strike.
Also Buy SEAD aircraft first to help with last moment suppression.

Myself I tend to use aircraft mostly for on map counter battery missions, i.e. knocking out mortars and such. Usually takes 3 to 5 turns before you've spotted the positions via the smoke and if you use UAV's and the occasional helo pop-up to spot (and possibly run outta missiles) MANPADS I find it works fairly well. Around turn 10 in most games you're starting your initial assaults and not having enemy arty/mortars landing on you while you're doing so helps a lot.

Andy's (Mobhack) comments on real world aircraft effectiveness are spot on. At operational levels aircraft are invaluable, at tactical you're usually better served by artillery in-game (and often in real life).

And Marek_Tucan's quote about the 1st Gulf - "During the 30 days of air raids I have lost two tanks. Then, during 30 minutes of land combat, the rest." is correct if not quite complete ... it should read "During the 30 days of air raids I have lost two tanks. Then in 30 minutes of combat the with the Abrams tank, the rest." or something very close to that.

[Wdll]

In a campaign, you have to buy artillery (at least for core) before aircrafts.

[_Tim_]

Another option if you don't like the prevalence of MANPADS is to use the Mobhack tool that is provided with the game to edit the radio codes. Set the last digit to 1 means that AI will tend to skip the unit during purchase. This isn't a guaranteed cure, as the help file says:

"Rarity" in game terms does NOT necessarily mean "Rare". When the AI picks units for it's formations it starts at the bottom of the list and works up and it tends to favour the first thing it finds.

Try it, might make a difference. Andy and Don have been very good to us fussy gamers with lots of ways to adjust gameplay to suit personal tastes . How many other games can you think of that are so flexible? Not many I'll bet.

Personally I'd like to see aircraft allowed in the core but I respect the decision not to do this and it doesn't stop me playing (to obsession ). There is enough scope to modify the game to suit almost every preference, so try out a few different options.

If the radio code thing doesn't work there is always the option to make some very radical changes, like giving each MANPAD unit only 1 missile, or chopping the units completely. That would make a very big difference and in my view is a step too close to cheating, but it can be done.

Health warning - any changes you make are entirely at your own risk, and don't use a modified OOB in PBEM. Scenarios and campaigns could be seriously wrecked as well.

I'm just pointing out that these options are possible - the choice is yours. It's a game and we can all enjoy it in the way that we like best, there isn't really a right or wrong here.

cheers,

Tim

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by _Tim_

If the radio code thing doesn't work there is always the option to make some very radical changes, like giving each MANPAD unit only 1 missile, or chopping the units completely. That would make a very big difference and in my view is a step too close to cheating, but it can be done.

Or expand the MANPADS team to MANPADS section (atleast in the WarPac it was 6 men with 3 launchers or so), so in the end you have one unit (albeit with more missiles) instead of 3 and thus less MANPADS, though harder to kill. Fair's fair

[Imp]

Just my view but I think the AIs air defence is fine for the following reasons.
People tend to play more with helos than fixed wing.
Also tend to think air assets are far more common than they are so AI buys more AA than it should to compensate for this fact.
Yes some formations might work in conjunction with helos but not always & many dont.
Fixed wing use in my view is used pretty rarely in the game role really only to plug holes in arty cover.
Might lead an assault as additional punch to arty.
How many planes do you think would support 3 Companys, probably 2 if lucky called in for a specific task then might linger or clear off.
If they are used in large numbers then intel would probably expect them so AAA would be beefed up in the area this is represented by the extra MANPADS etc but should probably be represented by offmap area SAMs. The player would probably get upset though that only 3 of his 10 planes made it to the map because area SAMs got them so the extra MANPADS is a middle road.

If planes helos are not used till the middle portion of the game there survivability goes up as you can detect & neutralise the remaining AAA assets. Both are then far more effective as do not have to find own targets & if they fail to destroy the target have at least upset something in the area making the area ripe for ground forces to attack.
Because all air is fast it does not mean it should lead what it means is it can reach places fast so its a reaction force. Tanks spotted over there send your planes or move helos to boost the opposing force till slower help arrives. Preferably from an angle that gaves ground forces a flank shot if they need it.
And yes the best SEAD you can buy helps a lot

[Suhiir]

I'd like to see the AI buy perhaps half as many MANPADs as it usually does. Course I'd also like to see the AI not buy an arty battery for every inf bn as well

As to friendly MANPADs...I upped the number of missiles from 2 to 4 on my teams, but left their ROF at 2...this doesn't effect their cost much and makes them twice as effective so I can keep the number of friendly ones down to a "realistic" number.

My thought is that if the opposition air threat was as severe as the AI's tends to be when it sends in the 6-10 airfraft runs it favors chances are extra missiles would be on-hand so its "reasonable" rather then "cheating".

Then again...it's easy to rationalize anything that gives you the player an advantage...isn't it?

[Wdll]

While I believe the way the AI handles air defence is fine, I wouldn't say the same about the placement of immobile SAMs. It places 3-6 units in a 3x3 area. As soon as you find one, they are all dead.

[Suhiir]

Artificial Intelligences - aren't.

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by Wdll

While I believe the way the AI handles air defence is fine, I wouldn't say the same about the placement of immobile SAMs. It places 3-6 units in a 3x3 area. As soon as you find one, they are all dead.

Which is only realistic, mind you You cannot run the data cables too far