Guide: LA R'lyeh or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Dreamlands

[Squirrelloid]

So, even accepting that Starspawn priests are immune to dominion-based insanity, I still feel you want to be pumping out mages. You need to start generating different path combinations early and often, and those mages will be far more useful at a variety of tasks, not just researching. Effectively, you need your workforce to be capable of multi-tasking, and need to have the necessary magical capabilities already lined up before you actually need them.

It does suggest that once you have what you consider enough magical might (imho, somewhere in the 30-50 mage department is probably sufficient for awhile) you should purchase the priests for research duty (which will help free up some of those mage assets for other tasks even when those tasks aren't critical).

[Illuminated One]

Sorry for not being clear, it's as Napty says, but they don't get insane just for hanging out in your Dom, only based on having a good bunch of illithid priests for 40+ turns.
Everything else (Starchild, Freespawn) goes insane.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

It does suggest that once you have what you consider enough magical might (imho, somewhere in the 30-50 mage department is probably sufficient for awhile) you should purchase the priests for research duty (which will help free up some of those mage assets for other tasks even when those tasks aren't critical).

I'd go the other way round, I'd first build a research base from the cheap mages you have around and then start building some combat mages.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

I'd go the other way round, I'd first build a research base from the cheap mages you have around and then start building some combat mages.

Here's the problem I have with that theory: you won't get the starspawn mages you need reliably, and that's a problem. There are a lot of possible combinations, and only a few of them are really desirable (many of the others are pretty interchangeable). W3S3, W1E2S3, W1S3D2, and W1S5 are your preferred combinations for most purposes, and to get those in any numbers you need to buy a lot of mages.

Further, starspawn mages are more efficient turn-wise with research, and are more efficient capability-wise as well. I'll pay the extra upkeep/purchase price for that versatility alone. That they are better than the priest starspawn at any activity isn't something to be looked down at. Only after my versatility needs are met would I start to think about specialist researchers. (If you could purchase the exact paths you wanted when you bought a mage my opinion might be different, but the random element means I want to have those mages before i need them so i do have them when i need them and don't need to spend 4+ turns buying mages to try and get the one(s) i need).

Its not like you need to buy troops. You're trading gold efficiency for other kinds of efficiency, and advantages like research tempo and crafting tempo.

Edit: Want efficient cheap research? Craft skull mentors.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm... edit period expired. Consider this an addendum to the previous post.

On specific mage path demands: When you get construction 2 the items you most want are dwarven hammers, clams, and crystal shields. This requires you have a W3S3 mage ready to be empowered to N1 (preferable way to get clams), and a W1E2S3 mage ready to be empowered to E3 for the hammer (also minimal mage to make the shields before empowerment, so you may want more than one). The odds of getting both picks in the same school is 1/16, but with a 10% chance of +1WESD getting either of those is more like 1/15. That's an expectation you'll have to buy 15 mages to see the one you want. Don't wait to start buying.

Assuming no 3rd random pick, distribution of mage paths are as follows. Especially desirable combinations are marked with an asterix.

W3S3* : 1/16
W2S4 : 1/8
W1S5* : 1/16
W1E1S4 : 1/8
W1E2S3* : 1/16
W2E1S3 : 1/8
W1S4D1 : 1/8
W1S3D2* : 1/16
W2S3D1 : 1/8
W1E1S3D1 : 1/8

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I really dislike a pretender who is immobile for this. Manual site searching will net more gem income and not waste gems doing so, and the only way remote site searching can even compare to a rainbow pretender manually searching is by casting Acashic Record, which requires a whopping 25 astral gems and researching Conj 5.

I never suggested Acashic record - complete waste of gems.

You are completely right, that this is a game of tempo. But you are completely wrong in suggesting that the only way remote site searching can compare is with acashic record.

Check out the other thread, where I show what the distribution of underwater sites are. Realize that by casting Voice of Tiamat *every* turn, you will on average have a *higher* gem production, and a higher total research by turn 12 than you will by manual site searching with your pretender.

Edit: What the heck does your pretender need S7 for anyway? You can get S9 on a W1S5 Starspawn mage with boosters (coin, RoW, cap to S8, Blood allows Robe of the Magi and there are also artifacts you could use). Its not like your pretender needs to make up for an astral deficiency. Astral is probably your pretenders *least* important magical path.

You are planning on an A5B5 (with or without boosters) when there are no blood sites underwater? And you are going to get 50 blood slaves how? When your dominion kills off population like crazy, and you have no blood hunters save your pretender?

Finally, you need S7 on your pretender because Astral gems are at a premium. You will need every single astral gem you get your hands on. As the game will be won or lost often by the endgame wishes/master enslave - every single S on your pretender is an astral gem that doesn't have to be dedicated to a booster.

Is that an effect of scales? So magic 3 improves the number of free spawn mages you get? I'm pretty sure this is actively untrue.

You suggest later on that I don't know the game. To make the above statement really reveals *your* lack of knowledge.

I am not saying that Magic 3 improves the number of free spawn mages you get.

I'm saying that without M3 they are 3-4rp each. With M3 they are 5-6rp. (I forget which). And as you will have literally 100-200 of these by endgame, the M3 scale will be earning you hundreds of rp.

Now someone else has already provided a more plausible argument for taking better magic scales (better chance at the 3000 gold + magic item + gems event), and a more relevant one, since your caster freespawn are actually less useful than your non-caster freespawn.

You have obviously never used a communion.

The reason is that freespawn units come in magical and non-magical varieties, and you already have a lot of magical leadership in your starspawn mages, so what you are short on is normal leadership. Mad Cultists only have 10 leadership, Cultists have 40. The difference between picking up 10 and 40 is huge for your micromanagement woes, and while you can forge scepters of authority if your pretender has fire... he honestly has better things to be doing.

This is incredibly stupid for LA R'lyeh. You cannot afford the upkeep on them. Would you rather have 5.5 illithid troops or another starspawn mage? I'd rather have the starspawn mage - he'll be far better in combat than 5.5 illithids. And that's the real trade off, both in terms of initial purchase and in terms of upkeep. And that starspawn mage can be forging or researching while he's not off providing tactical casting support - what are those illithid troops doing other than eating your money when they aren't fighting?

I said your starting build. 8 troops. Which you can support the upkeep on. And which will help your initial expansion tremendously. And by the time you get to mid game they are dead.

Hard to see how 8 troops can be *incredibly* stupid. Especially since it works.

You can build a starting mage, if you wish. But there about a 25% chance that your starting troops will be unable to take a province turn two.

I'd rather ensure I take a province turn two, than gamble on it.

Ok, first I just have to point out that it's hilarious you're against a few sea serpents in year 1 or early 2 at 8 water gems each, but you're in favor of many many castings of Tiamat's instead of manual site searching.

I am not against manual site searching. I'm against buying a rainbow pretender for site searching.

However the more salient detail is this: My approach, which you ridicule trades water gems for research. Ie., by turn 12 if you follow my approach, you will have higher research and higher gem production on average. Just no sea serpents.

Second, that water booster requires Construction *6*. How soon do you expect to have that online?

You think water boosters require Con6? Have you checked recently?

Finally, your pretender search? Didn't you just advocate a Void Lurker? You know, immobile. Will need to build a lab to cast teleport. Pain in the *** and will cost you 500 cash every 3rd turn? And will cost you gems to move. I've even tried this. It sucked. A lot. I can't believe anyone advocating this has actually tried it in practice.

Try listening. In most maps you will have remote waters that are *not* connected to your original starting position.

The ability to take those locations early game and project dominion is critical.

You will be building a castle and a lab there in *any* event. You know, for things like mage recruitment.

What my pretender design allows you to do is teleport and take those locations that you *cannot* do with your build.

Aka: you can move to them, as the archmage can't go on land. And you can't teleport to them, because you're not strong enough to beat the indy defender.

Sure, rp/$ is way lower. Until you realize that *only* the starspawn mages are immune to insanity.

Factually not true. It makes me wonder if you have actually played the race.

I have never seen more than 1-2 of either type go insane from dominion.

Starspawn priests are a trap. Just get two for playing in the void gate and then forget about them.

Personally, I buy mages until I get the combos I need and priests thereafter.

I don't understand how this helps. At best a slave mage has E1. Boots -> E2, Hammer requires E3. Your Starspawn mages can have E2. Both will need empowering to make a hammer. Your starspawn mage won't ever go insane. Winner: Starspawn.

The only use for a slave mage is the Nature pick, and even then its pretty marginal because you're buying a commander who can go insane. Despite the lower likelihood, trying for a W3S3 starspawn and empowering to N1 is probably better for you. Especially since you're going to buy a lot of starspawns anyway.

I can't emphasize enough how bad commanders other than the starspawn mages are for you. It won't seem bad early on, but as they get increasingly insane you'll find yourself losing months of time waiting for them to become sane again. Making your research dependent on characters who could all decide to start calling god instead of researching is a recipe for disaster.

So much of this is just flat out wrong. Your priests realistically, don't go insane. And its a MR roll for your slave mages to avoid going insane. Yes slave mages will go insane. At the end of year two, most recent game, I had purchased three early slave mages. Two had no insanity at the end of year two. One had 9 insanity.

Go luck at the probability charts at the front of the book. Look at mages mr, and see the chance of going progressively insane.

I'd rather spend 600 gold for 4 slave mages with a 25% nature pic - and a variety of other useful picks (like water, for voice of tiamat) than 90 design points for N4 on an archmage.

You have a 1/16 chance of getting a e2 or d2 mage. I can not tell you the number of times I have gone 2 years without getting either. I did a statistical calculation after one of my games. (I'm sure someone will do it again in an attempt to disprove the point). But after the end of year two you still have a significant (40%?), chance to not have gotten *ANY* d2 mages.

What does your prophet have to do in the early game again? Oh right, nothing. He should join a main army with a good number of void summons so he can divine bless them with whatever rainbow bless benefits you have.

Seems like now you're telling him to do what I have him do: Accompany an army. I usually smite more, as in the early game the sacred spawns are few, and the weaker types.

Alternately, if you prophetized your scout - you are using him to project dominion in an enemy land. Or your own. The strength of the free spawns in your land is directly tied to your dominion strength.

There are twelve? (again going by memory) holy sites. Don't get me wrong - I will happily site search with free spawn priests. Or let them do it themselves. Your prophet has better things to do.

Star children are *also* prone to insanity. And Every ~3 of them could have been another starspawn mage. That starspawn mage can simply mindhunt or dreams of r'lyeh a province (with higher success rate against more targets) without having to move there first, making a single starspawn mage vastly more effective at killing enemy commanders than three star children at the cost of a pittance of astral pearls. They have a niche use as slaves in communions, nothing more (and i'm even starting to regret buying some for that in my current game).

And what do you do against an opponent that has astral mages, before you have dreams? Mindhunting marignon, ermor, lizard shaman is a rapid invitation to feeblemind.

Against many of these nations, an 85 gp starchild is a good trade. Especially since its the only thing you can build *on land*.

I don't quibble that I would *rather* build a mage or priest, most of the time. However, you ignored a unit that is useful 25-30% of the time. It deserves mention.

Summary:
Your conception lacks understanding of some basic principles.

Tempo. You realize you can get something eventually, but you never think about how long it will take you to get it. Getting things early is important.

Relative gem throughput. You criticize ~40 gems spent in the first 2 years on summons, and advocate spending 4x as many in that period on remote site searching.

Insanity. Only one (living) commander unit type is immune - the Starspawn mage. This is such an advantage over every other option that it trumps virtually any considerations of efficiency, because insanity is a hidden efficiency cost of those other options. And he does absolutely everything you need a commander to do, including lead large numbers of troops (higher than Illithid Lords out of the box, admittedly biased strongly towards magical troops). Basically, the Starspawn mage is hugely efficient by any metric except gold cost, and once you figure insanity into the equation, he's at least equal in efficiency with the other options.

Just wrong. For all intents an purposes, mages and priests are both effectively immune.

A priest with M3 is 8 rp for an upkeep cost of 5. A mage is 10 for an upkeep cost of 10. Thats a 60% advantage for priests - and you are unwise to ignore it. (I'm going by memory, so if anyone wants to correct the math, feel free).

Lastly: Cauldrons/wine skins are more than worthwhile for the increase in combat efficiency. Sure, its not my first priority either.

Dragging around hundreds of diseased (and starving) units means that they have lower hitpoints. They die easier, and route faster requiring more leadership for the same combat effectiveness. Healing spells (no, I'm not a fan) are not effective, and they aquire afflictions which reduce their effectiveness further. Crippled, blind, etc.

As for not understanding key concepts, I'd be happy to play a game or two to demonstrate my lack of understanding.

Look, generally, I agree with a lot of your guide - and I think its valuable and a pretty solid.

But you are wrong on several key points:
1. Priests, effectively, don't go insane.
2. Mage+3 scale is perfectly viable, and probably the best way to go.
3. Freespawn mages are *useful*.
4. And I quibble on some of your design choices. Blood on your pretender, for example. I believe the extra hp for the void lurker, astral picks, and extra dominion more than make up for immobility and 20 path cost.

Fundamentally, you are saying that it is better to buy FxWxExAx on your pretender, and site search every other turn, than use the design points for Magic3, and site search every turn with Voice of Tiamat with a 150 gp mage.

Personally, I don't agree with you - but I wouldn't say you're choice is ridiculous, or demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the game.

[thejeff]

It seems to me this approach trades off early game for mid/late game potential.
You might be able to get away with this, because there's no direct competition for water in the Late Age. 6-8 provinces in the first year will put you dead last in expansion. That may be okay if no one else is able to get into the water effectively, you can finish taking water provinces at your leisure. It'll certainly work in SP.

In MP, what do you do when you run into Atlantis and Mictlan and don't have any expansion after the first year without an early war that you really don't want? Ermor may be trying to grab some water as well. Not sure who else.

[chrispedersen]

I agree that my approach has better endgame potential.

However, I don't concede that it costs anything in the early game.
The archmage with no research is of no use in early expansion. In my opinion 8 mind blasters paralyzing closest adds as much combat effectiveness as your archmage pretender.

Of course if ermor, or mictlan get into the sea, you do whatever it takes to take the seas. Including sea serpents, if necessary = ). I just dont' think it should be a tactic against indies.

Against opposition - it depends on setup. Connected waterways? Chokepoints?

[thejeff]

My comment was about Squirreloid's approach.
Thus the 6-8 provinces by the end of the first year. For that to even begin to viable, you have to be unopposed in the seas.

Sure, you do whatever it takes to take the seas, but it's much better to take most of them from indies, not wait and take them from opposition.

[chrispedersen]

Agree completely.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by thejeff

In MP, what do you do when you run into Atlantis and Mictlan and don't have any expansion after the first year without an early war that you really don't want? Ermor may be trying to grab some water as well. Not sure who else.

Jomon. They'll be pretty motivated, I think.