Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?

[c_of_red]

Mustang, which hole? The Helio had hundreds of holes in it. IIRC, the turbine had enough blades shot off that it was shutdown to prevent self destruction. At the time Doctrine for AH's was to form flying wedges and cross the ground at a few hundred feet. Naturally, when you fly over a few thousand infantry armed with automatic weapons, the golden BB factor goes way up.
No telling just which one of the thousands of rounds fired actually did the deed. In WW2, if several planes jumped one plane and all got in bursts, the guy that was firing when the target flamed or blew up got the kill. Or it was split. Of several pilots got the credit. So there is plenty of room for arguement on both sides. I think the AH-64 was on the way down when the farmer fired. There is no way it can be deternined if the farmer actually hit the helio. But since he was the last weapon firing at it before it crash landed, he gets the kill. The Army threw away their tactical manual for attack helios after that. I think the re-write is still cranking along.
Keep in mind that the skin of a helio is a thin as possible. The 'armor' is behind the skin, not part of the skin like a tank. That is so it can be pulled and replaced. The same idea as the bullet resistant vests. As the plates are improved, you can just replace them and keep the vest. As the armor gets better or damaged, it can be pulled and replaced without tying up the airframe. So a round will go thru the outer skin, hit something and bounce, going thru the skin again sometimes. Not many rounds stay in the helio, although the techs have to look for them.

[narwan]

Opinions differ on it. Some like to keep it more realistic, others don't mind using game features to exploit certain tactics. Same for how far in the game drops are allowed, opinions differ.
It is gamey (in my opinion) for exactly the reason you could have read in my post you replied to. It is using the games cut-off point to force a victory. I'm curious, how many real world examples can you give where the enemy tanks stopped firing at the para's 'cause they didn't have a game turn left?

Since the rest of your comments have little to do with the topic I'll refrain from responding to those. I have no problem staying polite.

[Mobhack]

It is common to ignore last minute drops in victory conditions of wargames.

For example - the Wargames Research Group 1950-2000 tabletop rules in the "deciding the victor" section, has this senetence:

Do not count elements that landed from air or sea within thier sides last 3 bounds.

Which is clearly there to stop a potentially "gamey" tactic.

So - IF both players agree to allowing paras should thay choose do do so in a PBEM, a simple agreement to avoid landings after a certain move (75% of the contracted game length?) should suffice to kill any use of them as a "last minute" spoiler.


Cheers
Andy

[c_of_red]

The real world doesn't have turns, or V-flags, which makes your question silly. Please Note that no game can approximate the real world, so if that is your standard, then everything is gamey. One reason I don't play the WW2 games any more was the whole thing was to gamy for my taste. A 'typical' battle in the ETO would involve 8,000 points of allies advancing against a german delay of maybe 1,000 points. How often do you play one of those? On the Eastern front a standard Soviet attack would start with 10 to 20 tubes per hex firing for 60 turns or so before the 10K points of Soviets assault 1K points of germans. Done one of those lately?
On one hand you are saying it's gamey and non-realistic, on the other you wish to know what your opponents tactical plans are before the game starts. Isn't that a tiny bit gamey? By your own standards.
The most dangerous weapon on the battlefield costs zero points and is available in every nation's OOB. It is suprise. There is absolutly nothing that prevents you from droping paras also, if it bothers you that much, think how it will affect your opponent. No I see this as an attempt to gain an advantage thru negoiations. You are lawyering instead of fighting. The real world doesn't negoiate force limits on combat operations.
You could do the smart thing and keep a reserve. I pull my scouts back after about the half way point of a game and add them to my reserve, just to be able to deal with suprises such as paras. General Franks dropped the 101st ( or the 82nd, I forget which) north of Tikrit in 2003 to act as a blocking force and give the Iraqi army something else to think about. I'm sure Saddam would have loved to call Franks on the phone and accused him of cheating by attempting to 'game the system'.
The bast way to avoid the game ending dash for the flags is to negoiate pregame the victory conditions and just turn the flags off.

[Mustang]

It wouldn't be a totally gamey thing. The turn limit represents the fact that both sides are going to be exhausted after a while. After an hour of combat, ammunition and troops are going to be used up to the point that it's just not possible to fight much longer. This is particularly true with infantry, less so with mechanized forces. The fatigue factor sets in after a while.

[narwan]

Yeah right C, and dropping para's at the last moment so they can't be fought isn't 'lawyering' but real 'fighting'?
You really think you're the first one to think of this tactic? I noticed it's possibilities very early in my gaming career and after consideration decided NOT to use it. Ever. Because it is gamey. And I don't use what I find gamey tactics. By the way, there a couple of very gamey ways which make the paradrops a lot more effective and can negate just about any AA. You might wanna look for those too.

All rules players agree upon with each other work for both so there is no gaining advantage through negotiation. And if players don't agree on limits there's a very easy solution, don't play. There are plenty of other candidates out there.

[Sarunas]

c_of_red said:
The most dangerous weapon on the battlefield costs zero points and is available in every nation's OOB. It is suprise.

You forgot fear, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.

I'll shut up now

[pdoktar]

I myself consider Mobhacks tactics very effective and above all flexible. They work both against AI and Human players, and even when a human decides not to let you win this time, the flexibility of your combined arms force still gives you a fighting chance.

[EnemyAce]

I don't know if this is a best way but I guess works with my playing style.
I speed up PzGrenadiers and Marauders to strategic points before enemy gets to it and regroup infantry units so they have nice view. Depends what kind of terrain is but I keep infantry covered in trees or buildings and APCs at backline so ATGMs can't get those. Other cheaper APCs also would do fine, but I like that I have least one ace in my sleeve if enemy MBT shows up. Infantry ATGM is vulnerable to arty and enemy inf. so if they gets wasted out, I still have that one ace to use against MBTs.
Usually play with Germany at early 90s and I have problems getting rid of enemy MBTs, 2A4s are darn expensive so I don't have afford much else and 1A5s are crap against UK or US tanks, which against I play most of time. So ATGM APCs come handy then

[Mustang]

The top attack ATGM work well against the more expensive tanks, even if they have ARENA or VIRSS (because those run out of shots quickly). What I don't like is that a lot of these ATGM PCs cost almost as much as an MBT. BMP-1s and -2s cost only about 100 points and are fine because they can stand up to HMG fire and have heavier armament, but I never buy them because I consider it better to just buy heavier infantry instead of a heavier APC. You should stop buying Marders and just buy TOW-2B, RBS-56 or Javelin infantry teams if you can.