The MA Ulm issue.

[Nikolai]

> Are they -so- unbalanced that you just can't win with them against good players? Certainly not, I've won with them before,

News flash! They were NOT good player, if they lost with Ulm. Unless by "won with them" you mean - I was someone's smith ***** since turn one, and we ganged a real nation.

Ulm is helpless to blesses, SCs, tramplers, and even good human infantry supported by priest (on turn 1) If you get a SC to stop them, you sacrifice diversity... and because you need scales, their SC is better anyway.

[PyroStock]

The nation of steel should not be subpar in combat to almost every other nation. I would give their black knights a 1h sword of sharpness as well. MA Ulm's warriors should be feared-not ridiculed.

"Mechanical" national summons for *non-combat roles* - ritual spell-casting, preventing bad events, protecting stacks from mindhunt, etc.

their special blacksteel armour could justifiably be 1 or so less encumbering, or even stronger, because it's supposed to be special and because the troops would clearly have trained in it often, building up the muscle needed to carry it around without tiring instantly.
On the subject of actually hitting stuff - Ulm could justifiably have superior versions of basic weapons. Blacksteel flail, blacksteel sword, Ulmish hammer etc. These could carry att 1 def 1 or whatever, representing the kind of quality seen in the Jomonese weapons.

I like these best.

The AP swords, even if sometimes unnecessary in troop battles would make them a little more threatening against SCs. Similiar to what Micah mentioned in the Most Useful Research thread about weapons of sharpness, except Ulm's black knights wouldn't need a mage to cast weapons of sharpness.

If some feel Dr.P's constructs/summons are "too magical for Ulm" then maybe a high cost/resource national unit. Expanding on the anti-mind attack idea, perhaps an expensive immobile/slow unit that acts like a giant lightning rod or dome (low % based on balance) since they fear magic so much. An Ulm only dome spell with a low research requirement is another idea.

[Frostmourne27]

For brevity, I won't mention it if I agree. Yes, I know it makes me look harsh and critical. Sorry. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, although it probably looks that way.

CUnknown said:

1a)Ulm's troops are slow, both tactically and map-move-wise.

It is a disadvantage, sure. Balanced races have disadvantages. Tactically, this is not even worth mentioning as a disadvantage -- your incredibly cheap pin-cushion units are getting pinned. So what? I think you guys view Ulm's units in a different light than I do. They're the toughest and cheapest cannon-fodder in the game, they don't kill much stuff without buffs (such as Weapons of Sharpness), their real function is to absorb damage cheaply. Ulmish warriors do not hope to come back alive, their only purpose is to die in your service!!

--> True. You can hold the enemy up for several turns. And... Oh crap. You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get. And when you run into an SC? DOn't even start. You can't petrify, you can't get your own, you can't really bladewind it, since it probably wears armour, and magma erruption isn't that likely to kill it. And, of course, if four high seraphs reduce your infantry to toasted marshmallows in two turns, there isn't much for your mages to do other than run like hell. A few distraction units, and you probably won't kill much.

1d)Their high encumberance doesn't synergize with the high protection value since it diminishes the lasting power that high protection presents.

I am just repeating myself here. See above.

-->You miss the point I think, and I don't like your 'cannon-fodder' explination, but this isn't a disadvantage. EVERYONE with high protection has encumberance problems, except for the undead, and they have other problems.

1e) Their troop selection (while allowing different weapon combinations) only consists of high resourcecost, highly armored troops, limiting army construction, and making their armies predictable.

Why would you build anything else besides heavily-armored troops when you have them available for 10 gold? If this is a comment on the lack of early-game expansion power of Ulm, I think that is greatly exaggerated. Buy mercenaries and independent troops and you will expand with the best of them. You are guarenteed to get just about all the mercenaries for the first 10 turns.

I fail to see how you will get anymore mercs than anyone else with order 3. With the above mentioned prod 3, you will probably be able to spend most of your gold on recruitables, if you want to. Ulm of course, may NOT want to, since mercs are better that your troops at least 25% of the time.

2) Their weak mages can't allow them to be succesfull in mid and late-game. They're also borderline old age.

Ulm's mages are great! They only cost 140 gold and they can all cast Blade Wind and Magma Eruption! What else is there? I'm being semi-serious, too! Weakness of their mages is not an issue, but lack of magic diversity is. Ulm's mages are very potent at what they do.

--> They're cheap 'cause they're wortheless. Compare to Ktonian necromancers, which are 200, and LATE era. Necromacers have MORE magic, can get three in two paths, and TWO emore paths than smiths (death and some astral - as much as ulm gets air). Which, theoretically, means that the other nations get weaker mages. LE agartha, I should mention, has troops not vastly dissimilar to ulm's.

4) Reliance on resource-heavy troops limits their early expansion since massing their troops early is difficult.

It's not at all difficult if you take Production-3. I think MA Ulm has an excellent early game, as long as we're just talking about indies here. A nearby human with a bless rush can ruin anyone's day.

--> As mentionned above, compare to pythium. Pythium has easier expansion and a hell of a lot better magic.

6) No sacreds and priests to speak of.

So don't take a bless, this isn't a problem.

-->This limits options, but isn't really a disadvantage. Black Knights are comparable to moderatly blessed sacreds from the nations that don't have awesome sacreds. E.g. Pythium.

Done with Burnsaber's list, now to add some of my own points.

1) Spies + Lots of early castles = good

2a) Forging. Give any other nation an undispelable Forge of the Ancients and see how good they are.

2b) Forging for other people. You can make serious bank by selling items as Ulm. Or you can get tight with an ally by doing the same thing. Despite people's distaste for this, it really is a great advantage.

2c) Empowering and forging Blood items. Other races might want to do this, but with Ulm you are silly if you -don't- do it, it's so good.

2d) Research ability. Lightless lanterns put Ulm as a good research race. I think people don't realize how good the boost from these items are, and how cheaply and quickly Ulm can forge huge numbers of them. Combined with the blood stones from 2c) and the large numbers of castles mentioned above, and you've got yourself the ingrediants for a good turtle race.

2e) Little commander zap wands. I love these things. Given that you are going to have a large number of commanders ferrying around the huge numbers of troops you make as Ulm, giving your guys flame wands is a fun game. Later, you can upgrade them to fireball wands or the Rods of the Phoenix which are very powerful.

2f) Artifacts. Get 'em all. You know you've got the construction magic before anyone else.

-->Spies and castles ARE good. Of course, marignon could get the same, and just as easily.

-->Forging: You do NOT get a permanent forge of the ancients. Your mages don't get +1 in their known paths for forging. They also get 25% off, not 50, which is the forge bonus, IMHO. Oddly, Ulm also has a difficult time get the forge up. Honestly, making it an Ulm national might go a long way to solving ulm's problems.

--> The rest of your points are valid, but assume you research construction, which precludes the above mentioned evocation-smiths of doom. Also, they aren't that limited to Ulm. Lightless lanterns aren't THAT expensive.

[CUnknown]

For brevity, I won't mention it if I agree. Yes, I know it makes me look harsh and critical. Sorry. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, although it probably looks that way.

No worries!

... You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get. And when you run into an SC? DOn't even start.

Let's see.. I mean.. Are there counters to Ulm's units? Yes. Are there counters to Ulm's magic? Yes. Why is that an issue? There are counters to just about everything out there. About the SC stuff.. I just disagree.. Ulm can both make and counter SCs and thugs. I'm not sure how to argue that point except just to contradict you, though. Other factions can get/counter them easier, but Ulm can certainly get/counter them. I'm not trying to argue that Ulm is in the upper 50% of factions.

I fail to see how you will get anymore mercs than anyone else with order 3.

Because you have far more available money than anyone else in the early game.

Their weak mages can't allow them to be succesfull in mid and late-game. They're also borderline old age.

Um... no? We just disagree.

As mentionned above, compare to pythium. Pythium has easier expansion and a hell of a lot better magic.

I'm not arguing that Pythium isn't better than Ulm.

-->Forging: You do NOT get a permanent forge of the ancients. Your mages don't get +1 in their known paths for forging. They also get 25% off, not 50, which is the forge bonus, IMHO. Oddly, Ulm also has a difficult time get the forge up. Honestly, making it an Ulm national might go a long way to solving ulm's problems.

I never build the Forge as Ulm because there's no point to it. Ulm's forging abilities are equivalent to the Forge, and I have other uses for my earth gems.

[Panpiper]

CUnknown said:I never build the Forge as Ulm because there's no point to it. Ulm's forging abilities are equivalent to the Forge, and I have other uses for my earth gems.

In my experience, the forge bonus of the smiths stacks with the forge bonus of the global, making items that much less costly in terms of gems. The bonus of plus one to the caster spell level for the purposes of forging also saves you from having to do that one last empowering on each of your specialty smiths, which saves a lot of gems, far more gems get saved from this that are spent on casting the global.

The idea of making that spell a national spell for Ulm is interesting. I rely (completely) on forging to keep Ulm competitive (though I only play SP).

[Xietor]

good infantry.


Bad infantry-look at ulm.

Pangaea's infantry is not the best, but it is solid. 23 resources. 13 gold. 14 defense. Some of Ulm's infantry have defenses of 5 and 7. difference of 4 in mr. Pangaea has more hps.

Also MA Pangaea can boost the average morale of their infantry with their priests. Ulm cannot. And with recuperation, pangaea's infantry are much more likely to be useful after 4 or 5 battles and have experience stars that boost morale and stats.

Then we could compare the Black Knight to the Centaur Cataphract. The centaur is cheaper, and its recuperation and mr make it the more desirable unit. 32 resources v a whooping 68 resources. 40 gold v 55. 20 hps to 15. 13 mr to 9. Same str, same defense. Knight has 1 more protection, 2 better attack and a bit more punch to its attacks. Knight has 15 morale to 11 for pangaea's.

Ulm, the nation of steel, seems to be weak melee v melee. And that should not be. And I will not even compare arcos infantry to ulm's. And Arcos has elephants and good magic.

[Valandil]

I was hoping that would be a hoburg. You disappoint me.

As regards to Ulmish forging:
Err? You have a 25% discount on forging with an E2 F1 mage. This is in no way, shape, or form equivalent to forge of the ancients, which is twice as effective, and gives +1 in all known paths.

However, with a dwarven hammer, and the forge, master smiths can make items for free. This is usefull.

Ulm has no particular expansion ability compared to any nation except Agartha (and a few others, I guess).

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

A couple points with regards to the Pangean comparison...

'difference of 4 in MR'
Although it requires research in Thau 5, Ulm gets the amazingly inexpensive "Tempering the Will", providing all your units +4 MR. Because of its low fatigue, you can cast it even with a level 2 earth mage, even if you don't research conjuration or construction ... though that is a bit unlikely.

And while Thau 5 is a bit pricey, at a aggregate cost of 620, it can fit in your research budget easily, later on.

The defense hurts... but Ulm can get Tower Shields. While they're fairly easy to bypass in melee...

Shield (Pan) 4 parry
Tower Shield (Ulm) 7 parry

attacker generally rolls DRN+6
At the start of a battle, before melee causes fatigue...
Pan: 10+DRN (Diff of 4, or 18%)
Ulm: 16+DRN (Diff of 10, or 3%) CORRECTION EDIT

I am curious what spells these missile hit mathematics apply to. Blade of wind certainly, possibly even fire spells... Page 77 certainly implies that many fire spells count as missile weapons, though I don't know about splash damage. Can a shield parry lightning?

Anyways, before you even factor protection into the equation, you're getting hit only half as much, even by crossbows.

The cost for Infantry of Ulm (not Black Plate)? 10, 26. The lack of recuperation is notable, but where as the hoplite has a dinky little spear (dam3), Ulm has access to various weapons. The one I'm looking at has a hammer, with 7 damage.
Attack, Prot
Pan/Ulm 14+DRN versus 17+DRN
Ulm/Pan 18+DRN versus 15(body)+DRN

This is balanced by the variety of factors the Satyr Hoplite has in its advantage, such as defence and recuperation. And while the encumberance is equal (8) with these two units, fatigue decreases defense twice as fast as attack, which works in Ulm's favor in this matchup. In this particular matchup with the shield we get a defense of 11, which while inferior isn't as dramatically ineffective as a defense of five, especially while facing an attack of 11.

A small correction to Valandil. According to what I've read off of the forum, there is no free forging. The minimum is 10% cost.

I don't have enough Ulm or Pangaea experience to say who has the better infantry, but it isn't quite as one sided as you make it seem.

MA Pangaea generally has much inferior weaponry for a similar cost. I mean, EA Agartha uses spears... And we know what a super power their strong and hearty Pale Ones are. The War Minotaur is another story and price range, but spears really are of little comparison to the advantages of hammers and morningstars. Can someone refresh me as to what flails and morningstars, have as a special ability? I've forgotten.

EDIT:

--> True. You can hold the enemy up for several turns. And... Oh crap. You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get.

Really, you don't need conjuration 2 for Blade Wind or Magma Eruption. You don't have a heck of a lot to spend gems on other then forging. At a measly 30 fatigue, you can spend a single gem on it. With Blade Wind, you can boost your path temporarily with one gem. Not economical in the long run, but in the short term, Blade Wind and Magma Eruption are viable even without booster magic or items. In fact, you can think of one pair of earth boots as being equal to 7 Magma Eruptions.

It's even more costly, but you also have access to fire three spells with a gem cost of 2 or less in combat. Pheonix Power can be cast with a spare gem, taking you up to two, and thereafter, you can cast 22 damage, ap flame bolts for hardened targets with Evo 1. Very late game, after you've capped construction, you can cast Pillar of Fire for 20 fatigue (f2) at Evo 8. 34 Armor piercing damage will threaten even a cyclops pretender.

As no one expects to need magic resistance against Ulm, you may even be able to pull of something with Hydrophobia, also an extremely inconvenient Thau 8. It's also more effective in a hostile empire with positive magic scales for a penalty to MR.

More practically speaking, Rage and Prison of Fire are also along the research path to Tempering the Will. They aren't world shattering, but they are effectively research free, unless you're ignoring Tempering the Will.

If you ARE going for BladeWind and summon Earth Power (EP first), you'll get Pheonix Power as well, and plenty of fire spells will be opened up along the way.

As well, you have Destruction, Strength of Giants, and Legions of Steel readily available. early. Making their fewer attacks that hit much more deadly, and more survivable.

Yes, Ulm's magic variety and power still is quite poor. But you do have a few more options available at all stages of the game than just Blade Wind and Magma Eruption. The magical victory still goes to other nations.

[Panpiper]

Valandil said:
However, with a dwarven hammer, and the forge, master smiths can make items for free. This is usefull.

Er... With the Forge of the Ancients cast and no other equipment in hand, my master smith makes a Cloak of Invulnerability for 30 earth gems. If he equips a dwarven hammer, it costs him 20 gems. If I give him the Hammer of the Forge Lord, it cost him 10 gems. In no case is it free. The bonuses stack, but it is not purely additive.

[Chris_Byler]

I think Ulmish troops need either a few more points of skill, or a slight reduction in blacksteel armor encumbrance/defense penalties, or both. If that isn't enough, maybe a couple more HP and another point of strength.

If they're only going to do one thing well, let them do it *really* well.

A national spell that gives a squad of troops/all friendly troops 50% resistance to all elements would be very nice, too. They have Tempering the Will to counter MR-negates spells, but nothing much to deal with Falling Fires/Frost or Orb Lightning (the regular counters to those elements require paths Ulm doesn't get easily). I realize this would basically duplicate Gaea's Blessing, but - Ulm *needs* to be able to counter other people's counter to armor, because they don't really have a Plan B.

One way to deal with the morale issue would be to give them commanders with Standard. If Strategoi and Legati Legionarum (if that's the correct plural, been a long time since I took Latin) can lead their men to greater valor, I don't see why Ulmsmen can't learn to command that well too.

A way to get enough Nature magic for Relief would be nice too, but might be too big a change to the nation because of all the other applications that nature magic would have.