Oblivion

[OG_Gleep]

Yes..thats it. Thanks IH.

Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

And everyone would jump on someone saying "I hate dominions, with unlimited pretender creation points, the game is too easy". If you have some wierd need to use exploits in every game...well...theres always an exploit in every game. The AI can't handle when the player does certain things, or say there is a flaw in the combat system that lets you not take damage....if you feel compelled to do these things, then you must hate SP games. Unfortunatley gamers will find these types of flaws in games, but your the first person who insisted that they must be used.

[Gandalf Parker]

DominionsFAN said:

Well in these 2 days I only was traveling in the Imperial province so far and its HUGE with like 10+ castles/cities, lot of dungeons etc. Yes of course you can walk to anywhere or go on horse, or just use fast travel on the map. There are many provinces, I am not exactly sure that how much.

Here is an excellent screenie from the wilderness. Yes Gandalf YOU CAN walk in a wilderness like this. This is how the wilderness looks like. [The forest areas]

Im sure the graphics are great. And that you can walk in the "wilderness" but what Im wondering is whether its really wilderness. In Daggerfall you could walk out of town and fight monsters, you could find dungeons to do. In Morrowind you could step off the road but all you did was step over a hill to another road. You could find a do a dungeon that wasnt on your quest, but all you were doing was some other dungeon that was part of some other quest. Doing things out of order isnt quite the "open gaming" that Morrowind promised.

But it does sound as if maybe they listened to the daggerfall fans. Not as much as Id like apparently. Since other games look to be aways off then I will add Oblivion to my wishlist for now. Im not in a hurry though since I have other new games Ive bught but havent even opened and installed yet

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep said:
Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

It depends on how the game is balanced. I can see why she'd rather wait until the modders have improved the system. She seems to have very analytic mind, in that she understands what different formula and rules actually mean, and can come up with better ways to use those rules to her advantage. I can imagine it is harder to like games, if their flaws are more apparent.

SC didn't say that those flaws that exist must be used. She just said that she doesn't like doing that unless she is teaching someone else to do better, and in SP games, she shouldn't have to. A game should be a challenge. I woldn't compare that to cheating for unlimited design points, but to e.g. noticing that Vampire Queen is much more powerful as a combatant than as a rainbow pretender. The Illwinter guys hadn't thought of the Vampire Queen in the battlefield, and her cost was heavily increased in the following patch after her introduction. It could also be compared to using magical summons instead of national units. Not relying extensively on summons is not feasible in multiplayer DomII. The game wasn't meant to be played that way, but the game just works that way.

Mind you, she hasn't said that Oblivion is a bad game, just that it could be better. She also said:

But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

[Cainehill]

Saber Cherry said:
...I agree with both of those (well, except for the 'best' part). But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

Heh. Sounds like someone is seriously craving a pie fix.

I definately agree about MorrowWind's skill / leveling up system : retarded, lame, not fun, counterintuitive. Prop a book on the keyboard to keep the character jumping? Sheesh. Or - wear the heaviest armor you can find, and find the smallest rat to attack you for a few hours, to build up armor skill.

Thanks for reminding me why I haven't started Morrowind up in a couple months.

[Vicious Love]

Just chiming in to agree with pretty much all of SC's comments. Methinks the problem really does have to do with the world being so static. The world just kind of lies around and waits for you to outsmart it, on your own terms and in your own time. Which always comes too soon, as the world is none too bright. You really have to go out of your way to avoid stumbling onto one of the dozen gameplay-crippling exploits, and all the metagaming this necessitates makes everything seem so artificial.

[DominionsFan]

Gandalf Parker said:

Im sure the graphics are great. And that you can walk in the "wilderness" but what Im wondering is whether its really wilderness. In Daggerfall you could walk out of town and fight monsters, you could find dungeons to do. In Morrowind you could step off the road but all you did was step over a hill to another road. You could find a do a dungeon that wasnt on your quest, but all you were doing was some other dungeon that was part of some other quest. Doing things out of order isnt quite the "open gaming" that Morrowind promised.

But it does sound as if maybe they listened to the daggerfall fans. Not as much as Id like apparently. Since other games look to be aways off then I will add Oblivion to my wishlist for now. Im not in a hurry though since I have other new games Ive bught but havent even opened and installed yet

Nop you can fight in the huge wilderness with monsers, and you can find dungeons what are not part of any quests of course. I still travelling around in the starting province, and all I can say is that its HUGE, and awesome.

[OG_Gleep]

Dunno I still think he/she is saying that if its an option then it should be used. And good games don't have those options.

Power Gamers will always find the quickest way to level. Have you ever played an MMO? Every single one had gaping flaws that allowed people to get a huge unfair advantages. Well every single one I've played.

Unlimited Pretender design points means a VQ with 9e9a9w9f9s9n9d9b, and can only be gotten through a trainer as far as I know. The word trainer goes right along with Cheating in my book. Just because you don't use a 3rd party app doesn't mean its not exploiting or cheating. Abuse, exploits, and actual h4xs are all the same. And he/she clearly said what was written was an Abuse of the skill system.

So, if you abuse the system, and then complain about it...its kind of silly. Theres very few games out..good, bad, ok, that don't have some form of exploit someone has found.

And ok.. I may concede that taping "jump" button, may not be an abuse per se..but thats just power gaming in a Skill based system. Every skill based system you can do that. Its just the nature of the beast.

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep wrote:

Dunno I still think he/she is saying that if its an option then it should be used. And good games don't have those options.

So, if you abuse the system, and then complain about it...its kind of silly. Theres very few games out..good, bad, ok, that don't have some form of exploit someone has found.

I thought that she was only saying that she shouldn't have to limit herself when playing for fun. That's like saying that she shouldn't have to have to play Mictlan without ever summoning demons to have a challenge against the AI. It's like playing C'tis with Cold 3 scale and making sure that you only use your own national units. If you know how to play better, you shouldn't have to shoot your own foot.

And ok.. I may concede that taping "jump" button, may not be an abuse per se..but thats just power gaming in a Skill based system. Every skill based system you can do that. Its just the nature of the beast.

What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong. The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.
If "the nature of the beast" is acceptable, is giving Fever Fetishes to undead just part of the game, and acceptable? Not suffering from disease, cold or poison is one of the undeads' primary abilities. The life-draining dagger was meant to be a blood booster for different slot, not a weapon of choice for any creature that wants to have a shield - but as a path that can summon some of the most powerful SC chassises, it makes Blood's primary power of summoning even more powerful.
Sphinx was very powerful pretender in Dom:PPP. It could Teleport into any province very early in the game, and if you got it to an enemy capital on, say, turn 10, he was just screwed. There's not much you can do about it. Sphinx was made truly immobile for DomII, and Teleport was changed. While this might not be the perfect possibility, at least Illwinter did something. Dom:PPP was a good game. DomII is clearly better. Morrowind is a good game, and Oblivion looks better, but why shouldn't the other problems be corrected as well?

[PrinzMegaherz]

Endoperez said:
What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong. The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.

If I'm not completely mistaken, you only level up by increasing your primary skills to a certain amount. Her strategy does not involve leveling those skills, so she would forever remain on level one. And I doubt that you could master the arena with a level one character, as your abilities like Hitpoints etc. would be far too low to survive some of the more fierce battles.

[OG_Gleep]

Endoperez said:
I thought that she was only saying that she shouldn't have to limit herself when playing for fun. That's like saying that she shouldn't have to have to play Mictlan without ever summoning demons to have a challenge against the AI. It's like playing C'tis with Cold 3 scale and making sure that you only use your own national units. If you know how to play better, you shouldn't have to shoot your own foot.

Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

In your example, your chosing not to use what the developers have given you to provide a bigger challenge.

And yes, people do actually chose harder factions, races, sides, teams etc. to give themselves a greater challenge. Have you ever played against a guy who ALWAYS chose the best team in Madden? Or who always wanted to play the best race/side in a strategy game? In RTR, most players scoff at people who use "better" factions because its too easy.

To each is own I guess...but a lot of people actually do play on hard, or choose something that will provide them with a challenge.

I for instance, in oblivion, I wouldn't pick skills that I won't use so that I'll stay at a low level. That wouldn't be fun to me. And I also won't tape my stealth or jump key down over night, because I did that in morrowind and it became way too easy.

In UO there was a similar system, but since its a MMO the end game is more exciting then the process of getting there. So to me, being a 7x GM and killing PKers was my fun, so I powergamed every way I knew how. I did macro and tape the key down over night. That was fun to me, because the challenge was the PvP, not fighting rats and bears.

What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong.

Only if you do it.

The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.

Yes, if you do do what is listed the game will be easier. However, the ENTIRE game scales based on your level. So..if you stay at lvl 1, everything will be low level, but everything will also have basic equipment. A lot of things in the game are tied to your level. IMHO your gimping yourself and the game. But like I said, if this is your definition of fun, then yeah maybe the game is broken.

Dom:PPP was a good game. DomII is clearly better. Morrowind is a good game, and Oblivion looks better, but why shouldn't the other problems be corrected as well?

You were describing actual problems in game balancing. Strategy games and RPGs are different games. If nothing could beat blood in Dominions, it would be banned in MP pretty fast. The CB mod attempted to address the myrad of things that were out of wack.

Skill based systems were designed so that over time, as you used said skills, they would become better, and the skills you don't use...don't. Its pretty simple. If someone macros or tapes a key down, their skills will rise abnormally fast. Don't know how you would change it, and I don't think its an issue that needs to be addressed in a SP game.

In an exp system a lot of people will do random battles over and over again to max out their characters. Someone could theoretically fight random battles over and over again in a console RPG and max out their characters before advancing the story line. Doesn't mean the system is broken.

It becomes a lot more complicated in competitive gaming, and what is needed really depends on what type of game it is. In strategy/sports normally the community will step up and outlaw certain things and provide ground rules for a balanced game that is enjoyable for everyone. In a MMO/FPS, on persistant servers, its impossible for the community to police itself.

But in a SP game, most people police themselves to ensure they have a fun game. The dominons example is most people prefer not to play Ermor against the AI. The same motiviation that compells me to avoid easy difficulty compells me to avoid exploits and abuses.