Better Know a Pretender: The Green Dragon

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by OmikronWarrior

Care to explain why Wyrms remain as efficient SC's longer than Dragons?

Just looking at stats, the Wyrm does have the advantage of natural regeneration, some extra HP, and a second head. That is not really a deal breaker either way.

I think you mean to say that Wyrms can be killed and do not loose paths because they did not have them to start.

Yes I mean wyrms remain as effective as they were in the start even after dying a few times. The regen is somewhat useful, but the green dragon can get personal regen pretty fast.
Also, although wyrms don't fly, they are amphibious. That is a huge difference that must be considered in my opinion. Dom2 blue dragons were really worth considering because they could go underwater, but in Dom3 they can no longer do that unequipped.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, if you give a Wyrm a Wraithcrown, the ability to add a second head item should go a long ways towards increasing the Wyrm's power. Even just slapping 2 horned helmets on a Wyrm will make it more surviveable (and more dangerous) against hordes of chaff in the early game, and you can trade these out when you're ready.

Since you've already got regeneration, the addition of a reinvigoration amulet can help solve the fatigue problem, and an amulet of magic resistance can go a ways to ward off spells.

Nothing's gonna keep the Wyrm around forever against a determined enemy with enough power and tricks up their sleeve, but I have to agree that a well kitted Wyrm is a more pure, and longer lasting, SC than a dragon. And if you never put any paths on it, you don't lose too much by continually resurrecting a unit that's at the very least going to remain a decent thug.

Speaking of which, one of the best uses I feel that a dragon can be put to, is adding another source of damage to your Nation. Shock isn't available (for some reason? This would have been a great place for an Asian dragon Pretender), but if you've got poor access to fire, cold, or poison damage, a dragon might be just the thing. Using it as a pure SC will quickly get your dragon killed off, but you can still resurrect them in the mid-game, and then use them for combination attacks. If you're a poison-dealing Nation, then poison PLUS fire. If you've got lightning, then lightning PLUS cold. With the dragon's wings and natural resilience, this gives you a decent first-response option, and maybe the key to winning some battles against a Nation that didn't expect fire (or poison) from Niefelheim or Eagle Kings.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

Don’t miss our special offer: let your Dragon out expanding without awe, collect all possible afflictions and get a free title ‘Dragon of thousand wounds’.

Seriously, I have seen in several MP games aweless Dragons of my opponents been killed by independents, or had mass afflictions after expansion stage. Also I had personal negative experience: in YARG game I used Blue Dragon with dom7. On turn 7 or so he had received a lucky hit from militia troop and ‘Disease’ affliction was successfully added to his already present ‘Limp’ and ‘Chest wound’. Very next turn he received ‘Mute’ as a result of disease, and it didn’t go well with my long-term strategy.
It isn't nessesary you will repeat my story, but tests I made afterwards displayed Dragon without Awe is a gamble. If you feel lucky - sure, try it, I know I won't anymore.

Another thing I understood through my experience: Pretender SC’s should be expandable. I see no sense of spending too much design points on someone who’s main job is to risk his life on the battlefield. Adding extra death path on the Dragon costs a lot, but he is capable of expanding early without it and Fear and Soul Vortex wouldn’t save him from horde of undeads + Rigor mortis in midgame. IMO SC’s are better combined with high dominion and good scales, if strong death magic is so viable for the nation it is better to choose another pretender.

Awake blue dragon with W9 + Nations with access to sacred undead = very efficient combo

Who cares if he dies after early game?- early expansion + bless benefit reap the fruits throughout the game, anything more from him is an added bonus.

I personally love the blue dragon. Too bad they took out his water breathing.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

The dragon form has stealth in CBM as well?

It doesnt. But here is a tactic to consider
NOTE: This is for Green Dragon with the CBM mod only

Both forms have a leadership of 80. If its used with a nation that has stealth units then a new tactic comes into play. Give it some decent support units that are stealthy. Move it past the front lines of your enemy, or just skip the hard independent provinces for ones farther out. Then change from Druid form to Dragon form. You dont need to do anything else. Combat will occur the next turn and the dragon will have the support of all who followed him.

Or you can use the attack province command if you want the Druid to cast a couple of buffs before changing form. But I have found that the lag before the dragon can get into the fight can hurt you bad.

Setting the Dragon in the back gives the forward units a chance to draw the attacks of lances and archers. Setting the dragon to attack once then fire (breath) or attack rearmost or attack archers can be quite effective to getting it deep into the enemy.

Remember that taking high dominion can be a big help here. Domkill ability, more HP, more protection against enemy dominion, and it gives the dragon AWE.

WARNING: the obvious thought is to make use of the Dragons major HP with godly boost to its HP. But do not wander too far outside of your dominion with the Druid. His move drops to 2 in that form and he only starts with 10 HP. If you dont watch closely you can let his HP drop dangerously low. But if you move priests behind his advance to build up dominion then you can always fly him back to his own dominion for a power-up. Bringing along a stealth prophet can help.

Added Note: Dont bother using this with Pangaea. It might seem logical but it works just as well with their national pretender of Carrion Dragon which carries other benefits including a more robust alternate form. The Carrion Dragon can can also use this tactic in the vanilla game. Great support stealth armies, a dragon with fear +10, but no flight. Also the flying scouts of Pangaea help. You can quickly locate enemy capitals and might manage to take one or two during the early setup stage of the game when they are caught unprepared since you wont have to fight the whole way to reach them.

[thejeff]

Can't the Dragon take most indy provinces on his own? That's the whole point of an expansion pretender, after all. And since he can fly, he can bypass hard ones without wasting turns sneaking.

The stealth form may be of more use in late game raiding. Fly in, take a province, change forms and sneak away before a counterattack can teleport in.

There may be cases where leading stealth troops in is more useful than the flying mobility. I suspect I'd be more inclined to use other stealthly leaders and combine to attack when needed.

I don't have the game in front of me at the moment. If the Druid sneaks to an enemy provinces, changes form and flies to a second enemy province, what happens? Does he fight in the first province, second province or both?
My assumption would be second, but I could be wrong.

[Gandalf Parker]

You cant.
Once you change form you are in "defend" and cannot move.
Your only options are "change form" or "attack current province"

[TheConway]

Perhaps its just my lack of experience, but I haven't seen or heard of stealth being used in ANY successful strategy as anything more than a very minor side benefit.

[LDiCesare]

Perhaps its just my lack of experience, but I haven't seen or heard of stealth being used in ANY successful strategy as anything more than a very minor side benefit.

I've been pretty successful screwing my enemies' economy with Helheim stealthy troops. Hit, hide, disrupt again. Enemy can't find you, and either has to spend lots and lots of cash on PD, or move armies inside his own territory to take them back.

[Gandalf Parker]

Stealth can be very handy as a tactic. But as a strategy its pretty difficult. Also, the map sizes used for most MP games doesnt tend to support game strategies built around stealth or flying nations. So those things are downgraded to a quicky early-game tactic only. Stealth doesnt tend to have a good late game, or even a later mid-game. It CAN be used as a strong component to a real alliance (not just two nations who dont attack each other). But that doesnt happen much either. So no, you arent likely to see it used much as a strategy in most mp games on this forum.

[thejeff]

Interesting. Both stealth and flying are very useful for raiding. Raiding is what the late game is all about.
Teleport/Cloud Trapeze become more important than flying for the initial attack, but flying lets you move more unpredictably and avoid getting trapped. Stealth lets your raiders vanish, making them immune to most counterattacks.

I see them used less in the early game. Stealth is almost useless during expansion. There's almost always some province you can attack or a way around the impossibly hard ones. Flying is mostly useful early on for quickly reaching unclaimed indies, somewhat negated by early flying troops being pretty weak.

In the early wars both are useful for blitz attacks. Striking most of an enemies lightly defended rear provinces in one turn.

I'm not sure where the claim that "you arent likely to see it used much as a strategy in most mp games on this forum", unless you're discounting all the above as not a strategy?