I dont understand Serpent Cataphracts

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You do keep the lizard for the Serpent cult Version.

Last time I checked they would disappear after the battle. Maybe it has changed in Last few Versions?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Last time I checked they would disappear after the battle. Maybe it has changed in Last few Versions?

I had a riderless serpent in my army in the low magic serpent cult game I'm playing, so it seems to be the case now.

[magnate]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by E. Albright:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pocus:
(how do you say 'mauvaise foi' en anglais, Jacques? ).

Assuming that this question was not rhetorical (which it probably was), the phrase is transparent: 'bad faith'.

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'Mauvaise foi' is used in French to describe the behavior of someone who firmly supports a belief or point of view in a discussion, while thinking otherwise and not willing to admit it. I've seen an English translation some time ago, but I don't think it was 'bad faith'.

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Devil's advocate?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by magnate:
Devil's advocate?

Not quite. You can play the Devil's advocate and still admit it - then 'avocat du diable' would be used in French, which is a litteral translation without any pejorative meaning. When you say about someone, he is 'de mauvaise foi', it's a rather negative judgement: you mean he acts insincerely, and is trying to misguide others (as well as himself, sometimes). Eg, usenet trolls are often 'de mauvaise foi'.

Or could it be that 'Devils' advocate' is used in both cases in English?

[Edit: it seems Babelfish translates 'de mauvaise foi' as 'insincerely']

[ April 29, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Pocus]

Well to clarify, Devil's advocate would have been more appropriate for what I think of Nagot's stance. I know he likes to argue


Ok, so your crappy cataphracts saved your day because they were size 3 and not 2. Does it proves that they are not subpar? That they find a use in 0.1% of the situation is rather the proof they have a very small window of opportunity.

btw, what are the exact damages of a light lance, the description says 'dependant charge bonus' ???

[PDF]

Well, interesting exchange of arguments...
Myself I've found SC to be just "not good", that means I don't use them often, but neither do I find them "absolute crap" as say, Arco Cav .
So I think I'm more on NGF side (sorry Pocus ). Indeed Pythium is strong in nearly all game aspects, a less-than-average, costly cav is justified. Usually they just aren't needed, but if you have to get a cav corps they'll do it - expensively...
In addition I believe than in 2.11 SC got the "Light Lance", making them a bit more punchy on 1st round of combat, isn't it ?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
Ok, so your crappy cataphracts saved your day because they were size 3 and not 2. Does it proves that they are not subpar?

They are subpar when compared to other nation's knights - and I've already said or implied this 3 times in this thread, so I'm not trying to prove the contrary - ou alors je serais vraiment de mauvaise foi.

Your point was:

they are underpowered enough to never be built, at least if you play MP.

I proved this to be wrong.

So by definition they are useless.

Saving one player's butt doen't match my own definition of 'useless', and I - and others - have given other examples of their (limited, I agree) usefulness.

Either trash the unit, or bring it to average level (swamp survival, why not)

I wouldn't mind about them getting Swamp Survival. Otherwise, as it's been said several times, Serpent Cataphracts don't need to be improved further, just because Pythium doesn't need another rope to its bow - it has plenty already.

That they find a use in 0.1% of the situation is rather the proof they have a very small window of opportunity.

I estimate the probability for Pythium to start close to Pangaea to be more than that.

Anyway I'm not going to beat this dead horse - or should I say dead serpent? - any longer.

btw, what are the exact damages of a light lance, the description says 'dependant charge bonus' ???

It's dependent on the distance your charger moved in the round. I don't know the exact formula, I guess it must be something like +1 damage/square.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
It's dependent on the distance your charger moved in the round. I don't know the exact formula, I guess it must be something like +1 damage/square.

IIRC it's +AP/3, or about +5 for Cataphracts.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
they are underpowered enough to never be built, at least if you play MP.

I've used them in a Dom 1 MP game, and they saved my butt, while my other troops couldn't. And I'll do it again in Dom 2 if I find myself trapped in the same situation.

So by definition they are useless. Either trash the unit,

I can't see how trashing them would change anything to the current situation, and you're writing off SP players completely.

[tinkthank]

I still dont think that SerpCats should be more powerful, but I also still do not understand them. I still feel that they should be less expensive (not: more powerful). Even: Less expensive and less powerful. Not: A new rope, simply give the Pythium player an incentive to purchase his or her own national national troops instead of independent ersatz. Being an inferior unit is perfectly fine, for many reasons outlined here and in other threads; but being inferior and more expensive makes reduces the unit in question to a bizarre "emergency break" you pull only when your train is already starting to derail, not part of any normal plan. Don't: make the SerpCat more like a viable Indy heavy cav; Rather: just make it a viable, interesting unit.